Aug. 9, 2024

Was "Star Wars: The Last Jedi" THAT Bad? Luke Skywalker's Journey, with Drew Toynbee from Sequel Pitch Podcast

Discover the profound and often misunderstood character arc of Luke Skywalker in "The Last Jedi" with Drew Toynbee, the passionate host of the Sequel Pitch podcast. Drew offers an ardent defence of Luke's portrayal, initially met with disappointment by many fans, and delves into why this evolution is both fitting and meaningful for the iconic Jedi. He also provides a sneak peek into his documentary podcast series, "Why Do I Love This?", which examines the deep connections individuals form with fictional characters, all while juggling the excitement of expecting his second child.

In our conversation, we explore the academic fascination with Freudian analyses of Star Wars and how contemporary fans connect with characters like Darth Vader. We share personal reflections on key themes, such as trusting one's instincts and the wisdom imparted by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda. By revisiting Luke Skywalker's journey from "Revenge of the Sith" to the controversial "The Last Jedi," we offer a fresh perspective on his development and the emotional resonance of his heroic path.
Join us for a thought-provoking episode that just might change the way you see "The Last Jedi" and its place in the Star Wars saga.

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Drew Toynbee

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Chapters

00:00 - Defending Luke Skywalker in Last Jedi

13:27 - Analyzing Luke Skywalker's Character Development

17:09 - Reactions to Luke Skywalker's Character

25:10 - Luke Skywalker's Character in Last Jedi

38:17 - Analyzing Finn and Rose's Arcs

49:45 - Podcast Promotion Outreach and Feedback

Transcript

WEBVTT

00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:05.400
He's going to have the green lightsaber and he's going to fight Kylo Ren and it's going to be amazing and he's going to be the most powerful Jedi ever.

00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:11.192
And then you get into the movie and you see him and Rey's there and he chucks the lightsaber.

00:00:11.192 --> 00:00:26.455
And I was, along with so many other people, and I think I hope that this is why my defenses of the Last Jedi now maybe, hopefully, will be given credence by people, because I was not happy.

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Hello and welcome to the Fandom Portals podcast, where curiosity meets community in a celebration of all things geek.

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We build connections on every episode by delving into your favorite fandom questions in the time it takes you to go on that well-earned walk around the block.

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Hello guys, I'm your host, aaron Davies, and today I am joined by the amazing Drew Toyenby, all the way from the UK.

00:01:06.953 --> 00:01:18.063
Now he is the host of the Sequel Pitch podcast and he is also an audiobook narrator and he's also a very big fan of Luke Skywalker and Star Wars.

00:01:18.063 --> 00:01:33.322
He was a warm and conversational guest and I absolutely loved chatting to him today because he gave me a new perspective on the film the Last Jedi Now, having first watched it and not really received it well myself.

00:01:33.322 --> 00:01:50.316
After talking to Drew, I was able to really put some things into perspective, especially in regards to Luke Skywalker's character and how he was handled at the end of his arc after a 40-year off-screen hiatus between Return of the Jedi and the Last Jedi.

00:01:50.316 --> 00:02:05.415
Now Drew and I met on our threads, that is, at Fandom Portals, and he was kind enough to answer one of the posts that I put on there about guests starring on an episode and, obviously, being a new podcast.

00:02:05.415 --> 00:02:10.360
He took the plunge and we're extremely thankful for him coming on and sharing his knowledge.

00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:24.671
So we hope you guys enjoy this interview as much as I really enjoyed creating it, and stick around at the end because we'll be able to tell you where you can catch up with Drew and how you might be able to be a guest, like Drew, on our podcast as well.

00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:35.193
All right, this is Drew Toyenby from the Sequel Pitch Podcast, discussing and defending the Last Jedi and the Ark of Luke Skywalker.

00:02:35.193 --> 00:02:40.028
All right, guys, welcome to the Fandom Portals Podcast.

00:02:40.028 --> 00:02:44.091
My name is Aaron Davies and today I am joined by a very special guest.

00:02:44.091 --> 00:02:48.349
His name is Drew and he is a digital content creator.

00:02:48.349 --> 00:02:49.513
He's a podcast producer.

00:02:49.513 --> 00:02:53.954
He is the host of the To Be Coming Out podcast why Do I Love this?

00:02:53.954 --> 00:02:59.368
And the host of the podcast, sequel Pitch, which you can find on all your favorite platforms.

00:02:59.368 --> 00:03:00.551
Drew, how are you going today?

00:03:00.551 --> 00:03:01.745
Thank you for joining me on Fandom Portals.

00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:04.242
Mate, thank you for having me.

00:03:04.242 --> 00:03:09.111
It really, really is a pleasure to get to sit down and talk nerd stuff with people.

00:03:09.111 --> 00:03:10.193
Yeah, no, I'm very happy.

00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:16.908
It's a very big passion area of mine and I'm just pleased to be able to find people that are like-minded and come on and have a chat about the things that we love.

00:03:16.908 --> 00:03:40.676
The thing that we are going to be talking, a chat about the movie the Last Jedi and, in particular, you answered a threads post that I put on that's asked what people would like to talk about on my podcast, and you wrote down in the application that you would like to come to the defense of the Last Jedi and, in particular, luke Skywalker's character journey.

00:03:40.676 --> 00:03:49.682
So that's what we're going to be looking at today, but before we do, did you want to tell us a little bit about the documentary podcast series that you're working on, and then we'll dive into some questions about Star Wars.

00:03:50.585 --> 00:03:51.567
Yeah, sure.

00:03:51.567 --> 00:03:52.689
So why Do I Love?

00:03:52.689 --> 00:03:55.763
This came from it spawned from Star Wars.

00:03:55.763 --> 00:04:11.610
Actually, it began as a little project that I was working on with a guy that I work with in my freelance work and thinking about why is it that some kids are Luke Skywalker kids and other kids are Han Solo kids and what?

00:04:11.610 --> 00:04:25.271
What might be the differences in kind of philosophy or psychology like philosophy for like a 10 year old who likes Star Wars maybe is the wrong word, but what makes kids choose between those two when they do?

00:04:25.271 --> 00:04:44.343
And lots of brainstorming later I I came to this idea of looking into why I need a better word for this but why certain things become important, like deeply important and foundational for individual people.

00:04:45.105 --> 00:04:47.887
So season one it's starting out.

00:04:47.887 --> 00:05:01.675
Episode one is about why I love Luke Skywalker and it's and it's me personally the rest of the series, which is there's a lot of fictional characters in here, which is interesting in and of itself.

00:05:01.675 --> 00:05:02.776
The I was.

00:05:02.776 --> 00:05:12.180
I was hoping people would say like I love football, I love love driving, I love animals, but it's probably down to the nature of my social media connections.

00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:17.939
It's all just like no, no, superman, batman yeah, this world sent you these yeah, exactly requests.

00:05:18.019 --> 00:05:34.762
Yeah, I'm spending a lot of time like I'm very lucky my wife is is uh back at university training to be a nurse, because she's a wonderful human being, and so she's got academic logins to loads of loads of uh academic resources all over the internet.

00:05:34.762 --> 00:05:46.795
So I'm currently deep in the weeds reading through a whole bunch of academic papers about luke, skywalker and star wars in general general, and it's absolutely fantastic.

00:05:46.795 --> 00:05:57.925
I'm not saying the project is fantastic, it's still incoming, and I've never done a documentary before and it's a lot harder than you think when you sit down and go yeah, I'm just going to make a thing.

00:05:57.925 --> 00:06:08.547
That can't be that hard, it's fucking hard, but I'm really, really enjoying the process and hopefully we'll have something interesting for people to listen to with.

00:06:08.547 --> 00:06:23.507
Hopefully, episode one will be out sometime in the next month or six weeks, depending on when my uh second child arrives, because my wife has also been doing her second year of university whilst being heavily pregnant.

00:06:23.507 --> 00:06:25.661
Oh man, she's a woman, a mentalist.

00:06:25.661 --> 00:06:27.425
Yeah, absolutely so.

00:06:27.425 --> 00:06:28.086
Yeah, that's the.

00:06:28.267 --> 00:06:44.706
That's the project yeah, it does sound like a really interesting project, especially with it being, uh, driven by, like, psychological research, research, but also exploring those passion areas of lots of different people, and I think it's interesting that you said a lot of people are falling to those fictional characters as part of their, their.

00:06:44.706 --> 00:06:47.940
The thing that they're bringing to the table is the thing that, as you mentioned, that they love.

00:06:47.940 --> 00:06:51.468
Um, speaking of the thing that you love, you mentioned luke skywalker.

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Have you found that more people, uh, luke skywalker kids or han solo kids, or is it an equal mix of two?

00:06:57.271 --> 00:06:57.651
What's the?

00:06:57.651 --> 00:06:59.221
What's the findings so far?

00:07:00.504 --> 00:07:07.973
I, anecdotally, I always felt like way more people liked Han Solo than Luke.

00:07:07.973 --> 00:07:11.208
I always thought that too so, and I think there's something to that.

00:07:11.208 --> 00:07:21.990
But then again, maybe it's like who knows exactly how this comes together and what mystical evil algorithms are working within social media and my social circles.

00:07:21.990 --> 00:07:30.011
But the people that I have managed to properly speak to are far more identified now with luke and I.

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I wonder part of my hypothesis if that's not too wanky of a word for for the documentary.

00:07:36.586 --> 00:07:50.666
Without kind of spoiling the whole thing is that I think luke's character, particularly with what's happened under Disney, actually makes him even more appealing as people grow up and become adults and experience more of life.

00:07:51.841 --> 00:07:53.245
The character of Luke Skywalker as well.

00:07:53.245 --> 00:08:02.947
I feel like, for me at least, when I was growing up, I was very much a Han Solo kid and then, as I grew up into being an adult, I very much more leaned towards Luke Skywalker as well.

00:08:02.947 --> 00:08:04.531
Oh, no way, yeah, yeah.

00:08:04.531 --> 00:08:19.012
So I've moved towards the Luke Skywalker fandom sort of side, and I think it does come from the fact that he is a more sort of nuanced and character that goes through an arc, more so than Han Solo, I believe.

00:08:19.012 --> 00:08:20.517
Yeah absolutely yeah.

00:08:21.139 --> 00:08:24.250
Yeah, han is absolutely cooler.

00:08:24.250 --> 00:08:35.902
Like if you were to put together like an objective side-by-side list, especially in the first couple of movies, han han has, to most people, the far cooler ship.

00:08:35.902 --> 00:08:39.052
He's got much better lines, he's way more charismatic.

00:08:39.052 --> 00:08:41.500
He's harrison ford, which helps like he's.

00:08:41.500 --> 00:08:46.020
He's indiana to all of us who didn't watch these movies until the 90s and later.

00:08:46.020 --> 00:08:49.086
He's also indiana jones, which makes a big difference.

00:08:49.086 --> 00:08:51.431
But yeah, he's kind of.

00:08:51.431 --> 00:08:59.322
Han has always felt like more of a cypher and he gets the love story with leia in it and he has a good character and he's well performed.

00:08:59.322 --> 00:09:02.626
But yeah, I don't know there's a lot of.

00:09:02.626 --> 00:09:06.794
It has to just come down to personal preferences because like it does.

00:09:06.835 --> 00:09:19.793
Yeah, I love the Millennium Falcon is a cool spaceship design, oh yeah, but the X-Wing is in my to me, in my opinion, the coolest spaceship design that's ever existed.

00:09:19.793 --> 00:09:29.001
And no matter how cool Hans Blaster is, a lightsaber is cooler than a blaster, but not everyone thinks that 100%.

00:09:29.484 --> 00:09:35.929
I can see that completely, and I think it also all starts with what you are drawn to the most in a character.

00:09:35.929 --> 00:09:45.990
There are some people that say you know you are drawn to something that is very much like your own character, and there are also some people that say that you're drawn to characters that exhibit qualities that you yourself don't have.

00:09:45.990 --> 00:09:54.905
Um, and I think that's an interesting perspective to go to with these two different characters of han and luke as well, and sort of where you sit with them and when you sit with them in your life as well.

00:09:54.905 --> 00:09:57.441
It's an interesting sort of uh topic to dive into.

00:09:57.441 --> 00:10:02.990
So can I ask you, drew um your journey, let's say, with luke skywalker?

00:10:02.990 --> 00:10:03.591
How did that begin?

00:10:03.591 --> 00:10:06.394
How did you first meet this wonderful Jedi named Luke on Tatooine?

00:10:07.403 --> 00:10:09.089
I couldn't say exactly how old I was.

00:10:09.089 --> 00:10:18.130
It would have been the early 90s, I expect I was five or six, so that would be 1993, 94.

00:10:18.130 --> 00:10:25.345
And my brother got given the original trilogy on VHS and he wasn't that fast.

00:10:25.345 --> 00:10:29.729
He'd watch them occasionally, but then I was like, oh, this is, this is just the best thing ever.

00:10:29.729 --> 00:11:01.288
And I think and this is something that I am trying to explore further as, as I'm kind of, I'm deepening my journey doing all this research I'm not sure whether I was particularly drawn to the character of luke and his journey or whether I was more drawn to the iconography, because I remember I, if I picked up a stick, everything was a lightsaber from like the age of five for a very long time.

00:11:01.908 --> 00:11:11.607
And the x-wing, the imagery of an x-wing fighter, is burned into my mind and I don't think or I certainly didn't consciously go.

00:11:11.607 --> 00:11:16.541
I either see myself in luke or I want to be like luke.

00:11:16.541 --> 00:11:32.018
I I have no recollection of having those feelings at all, but he embodied the things that I found the coolest about star wars and so that's why I still gravitated way towards, way more towards luke than on or other characters.

00:11:32.018 --> 00:11:40.461
Also fascinating thing that I have come across what, how so many, so many kids say darth vader is their favorite character.

00:11:40.461 --> 00:11:41.384
Oh yeah, that's coming up too.

00:11:41.644 --> 00:11:46.538
And and like, what's up with those people?

00:11:46.538 --> 00:11:48.462
I like I really want to dive into that.

00:11:48.462 --> 00:11:49.865
I don't have, I don't have enough.

00:11:49.865 --> 00:12:10.234
I had a sponsor for the project and unfortunately they their marketing budget changed and so I now don't have a budget, so it's all off my own back and I was planning on like hiring a bunch of therapists and actually talking to people and really trying to dig down into like what could there be about a child that makes them go?

00:12:10.234 --> 00:12:11.816
Ok, yeah, there's these two heroes.

00:12:11.816 --> 00:12:15.529
There's the cool one, there's the idealist sort of atypical hero.

00:12:15.529 --> 00:12:16.982
What makes a kid go?

00:12:16.982 --> 00:12:19.349
No, darth Vader's the best.

00:12:19.349 --> 00:12:19.830
He's wicked.

00:12:19.929 --> 00:12:20.851
Maybe it's the red lightsaber.

00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:25.922
Well, yeah, it could literally be that simple, do you?

00:12:25.981 --> 00:12:34.508
think it might have anything and this is off topic a little bit but do you think it might have anything to do with the fact that you and I grew up in a time where we only had access to episodes four, five, six?

00:12:34.508 --> 00:12:39.552
So we only knew Darth Vader as that man in black, dressed darkly, going for power.

00:12:39.552 --> 00:12:42.529
Red lightsaber cuts off Luke's hand, completely evil.

00:12:42.529 --> 00:12:46.211
Great big shock when we find out that he's actually Luke's father.

00:12:46.211 --> 00:12:49.590
And now when people watch Star Wars they see him as a child.

00:12:49.590 --> 00:12:50.846
They see Anakin as a child.

00:12:50.846 --> 00:12:56.172
They may relate to Anakin the same way I related to Luke.

00:12:56.172 --> 00:12:59.068
Now they see him grow up through his teenage years.

00:12:59.068 --> 00:13:04.926
They see him go through that transition to the dark side and then Darth Vader, like maybe that's got something to do with it.

00:13:04.926 --> 00:13:09.485
I don't know, I'm not an expert, but they have a different sort of access to Star Wars than what we do.

00:13:10.783 --> 00:13:27.585
Yeah, there is definitely like people who grew up with Phantom Menace and onwards, being the movies that got them into it, do seem to have they have a much stronger connection to the character and I think you've definitely you've hit on something there.

00:13:27.966 --> 00:13:52.138
Although I was, I was reading a, there was a paper I mean, to be honest, I don't know if it's a paper or an article, but all referenced and researched and like, oh my god, so so much of the early academic work on star wars is just so obsessed with freud and oedipus complexes, which, which has been pretty like freud was important in psychology, absolutely.

00:13:52.357 --> 00:14:18.399
Like wider knowledge of psychology wouldn't be where it is if freud hadn't done what he did, but a lot of this his ideas were fucking bollocks with absolutely with like one child as as his proof for like all kids want to fuck their opposite gender parent and sorry, I'm swearing a lot now, but even this paper from late 70s, early 80s, was like a lot of children choose Darth Vader as their favorite character, wow.

00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:25.254
And so I think in in modern context is context is in modern contexts.

00:14:25.254 --> 00:14:31.567
Were we asking this question of 20 year olds at the moment, I think you would be entirely right.

00:14:31.567 --> 00:14:32.201
And they.

00:14:32.201 --> 00:14:37.312
If they said Vader, it would be because they've got this even deeper connection to the character in his journey.

00:14:37.312 --> 00:14:50.947
But there's again, and, like you said, maybe it's just the red lightsaber, maybe it is just the iconography of the character, but there is something alluring about the evil dude and I don't understand it.

00:14:51.248 --> 00:15:15.350
Yeah, now, in terms of how you feel about Luke Skywalker now, because you obviously have a decent sort of history with him, can you tell me now what you think about his character arc in its complete view, because we've seen it start from his birth in the Revenge of the Sith, moving to A New Hope and then coming to its conclusion in the Last Jedi, which has a very controversial opinion throughout the internet.

00:15:15.350 --> 00:15:25.169
It's probably one of the most contentiously argued points and the most divisive point in the Star Wars fandom is how Luke Skywalker was handled in the last Jedi movie episode eight.

00:15:25.169 --> 00:15:32.506
Yeah, would you like to talk to us about how you feel his journey and his arc has gone in relation to how it ended in that last movie?

00:15:32.506 --> 00:15:33.570
What are your thoughts on that?

00:15:33.590 --> 00:15:46.071
Yeah, so I, like I was saying before, when I was a little kid, I think I was drawn more to Luke because of the things that he had that I thought were cool.

00:15:46.071 --> 00:16:32.048
And then as I got older and into my teens and Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith were coming out, and as someone who was really into Star Wars, you're going back and you're rewatching and rewatching the original trilogy and looking for bits that link and being like, oh my god, it, that's, that's, um, I've forgotten all the characters names now, but anyway, and that was when I started to appreciate luke's journey in the as a character in the original trilogy more and seeing that change and seeing the wistfulness and the longing and beginning to identify with themes like trusting your instincts and in a new hope.

00:16:32.048 --> 00:16:40.701
So much of what Ben Kenobi teaches him is you know, there is the force, it's around you, it can partially guide your actions, but it does obey your commands.

00:16:40.701 --> 00:16:45.913
But then ultimately, when it comes down to it, the message is let go.

00:16:45.913 --> 00:16:47.201
Let go of everything.

00:16:47.260 --> 00:17:07.010
You know what to do, your instincts are right, you, you can have faith that what you think is what that doing, this is the right thing and it's going to work and then moving into uh, moving into empire, and I I mean I always I just love yoda on dagobah it.

00:17:07.010 --> 00:17:09.194
Just that the reveal.

00:17:09.194 --> 00:17:17.321
What what's funny is, I have no recollection whatsoever of being like shocked that darth vader was luke's father.

00:17:17.321 --> 00:17:27.846
I assume that I started watching star wars and one of my parents walked in during the first one and points at v Vader when he's on screen at some point and goes oh, did you know that's Luke's dad.

00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:29.125
Yeah, so it was spoiled for you.

00:17:29.125 --> 00:17:40.307
Yeah, I guess Just because I've seen all these modern social media videos of kids being shown that scene and they're like, oh no, yeah, and I don't remember that.

00:17:40.307 --> 00:17:54.229
But I do remember the feeling of like utter joy when Luke shows up on Dagobah and there's this wacky little Muppet and like crawling and hitting R2 with a stick, and then it turns out like wise and funny.

00:17:54.308 --> 00:17:57.220
I loved him too, yeah yeah, it absolutely perfect.

00:17:58.044 --> 00:18:25.165
and Luke's journey of Like even those little messages of you know that you can't judge a person by how you first perceive them and and thinking about how you present yourself and Luke's impulsiveness causing problems and he loses his hand because he doesn't do what Luke's just flipping, badass, oh yeah.

00:18:25.165 --> 00:18:36.884
And he's got the green lightsaber and he's doing flips and fighting over the Sarlacc pit and you have the best space battle in all of Star Wars at the end of that movie and he's got the fight with Vader and the Emperor and it's all emotional and it's great.

00:18:36.884 --> 00:18:40.019
So that was when I became like.

00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:45.340
That was when I became a real Luke Stan, not a Jedi, I like Jedi's Stan.

00:18:45.340 --> 00:18:45.809
That was when I became a real Luke stan, not a Jedi, I like Jedi's stan.

00:18:45.809 --> 00:18:47.449
That was when I was like no, I'm a Luke Skywalker stan.

00:18:47.449 --> 00:18:54.521
And then you've got the 10 years from Revenge of the Sith until episode seven, but that to just nicely bed in.

00:18:54.521 --> 00:18:57.835
And I become an adult and I go to university and it's not as cool to like Star Wars.

00:18:57.835 --> 00:19:02.527
So I kind of I still love it, but not watching it every day, kind of thing.

00:19:02.527 --> 00:19:08.240
I mean, I wasn't watching it every day when I was 15 either.

00:19:08.321 --> 00:19:14.214
But there we go and then Christmas 2014, the trailer for Force Awakens comes out.

00:19:14.214 --> 00:19:26.056
I'm at the office and work stops for three quarters of the office and everyone's just crowded around one computer watching that one minute teaser on repeat.

00:19:26.056 --> 00:19:28.761
And then it comes out.

00:19:28.761 --> 00:19:36.865
You don't see him for the entire flipping movie and it ends with him stood there on the cliff and I was like right builds, I've been, yeah.

00:19:37.185 --> 00:19:43.009
I was like, okay, well, luke's, something absolutely incredible is going to happen in the next movie.

00:19:43.009 --> 00:19:45.498
He's going to be the most powerful jet there's.

00:19:45.498 --> 00:20:06.579
There's, I think there's something in the legends, in in one of the legends novels which I've read shamefully few of um, where he like pulls star destroyers out of the sky using the force and crashes them into a planet and it's like he's gonna, he's gonna have the green lightsaber and he's gonna fight kylo ren and it's gonna beaber and he's going to fight Kylo Ren and it's going to be amazing and he's going to be the most powerful Jedi ever.

00:20:06.579 --> 00:20:13.047
And then you get into the movie and you see him and Rey's there and he chucks the lightsaber.

00:20:13.047 --> 00:20:30.743
And I was along with so many other people and I think I hope that this is why my defenses of the Last Jedi now maybe, hopefully, will be given credence by people.

00:20:30.743 --> 00:20:31.224
Because I was not happy.

00:20:31.244 --> 00:20:41.117
yeah, I was like oh it was me exactly, yeah and I think it goes a lot of people yeah to what you were saying before about how he he is that extremely awesomely well-liked character that goes through that arc.

00:20:41.117 --> 00:20:45.176
It goes from, you know, farm boy on tatooine all the way to in return of the jedi when.

00:20:45.176 --> 00:20:53.580
When he showed up at Jabba's palace, I was literally like everything's fine now because he was that powerful he was that much of a hero and you were just like I'm in safe hands.

00:20:53.775 --> 00:20:57.685
I can give my trust to Luke and he's going to get Han out of this and everything's going to be okay.

00:20:57.685 --> 00:21:11.211
They'll fly off in your spaceship and happily ever after, because, like, he was that sort of character, he was that sort of hero and when it came to the end of Return of the Jedi, everybody kind of had him on that pedestal and they had that expectation of, as you said, he's like that powerful Jedi.

00:21:11.211 --> 00:21:21.162
But I think everybody kind of forgot that he was always and even at that moment he was always still that flawed sort of character and it was exceptionally highlighted when he's obviously been.

00:21:21.162 --> 00:21:26.998
He's exiled himself and through the Force Awakens we're talked to about how he has exiled himself and it's almost.

00:21:26.998 --> 00:21:27.842
I was in disbelief.

00:21:27.842 --> 00:21:30.123
I was like why wouldn't he come back to help everybody?

00:21:30.123 --> 00:21:33.084
So that sort of questions is something that I wanted answered.

00:21:33.084 --> 00:21:39.666
And then when we do see him for the first time, as you said, and he tosses that lightsaber I completely agree, I was in the same boat as you Absolutely shocked.

00:21:50.734 --> 00:21:51.470
And for that movie I think I was like what is going on here?

00:21:51.470 --> 00:21:51.722
But, yeah, go ahead.

00:21:51.722 --> 00:21:53.329
And then, like, towards the end of that film, how did your, your feelings go towards luke?

00:21:53.329 --> 00:22:06.891
So, yeah, I my first watch of the last jedi all the way through I think I remember coming out of, obviously I went to the midnight screening, of course, yep, and I came out and was like that's the best looking star Wars film and it still is Like it's beautiful to look at.

00:22:06.891 --> 00:22:15.324
But I was like I really don't know how I feel about it, like what I think that Luke didn't Yep, same as a lot of people.

00:22:15.535 --> 00:22:16.799
They walked out a little bit confused.

00:22:17.563 --> 00:22:21.824
Yeah, and I I appreciate Actually.

00:22:21.824 --> 00:22:22.445
No, no, no, no.

00:22:22.445 --> 00:22:24.339
I don't think I did that first watch.

00:22:24.339 --> 00:22:25.163
I didn't.

00:22:25.163 --> 00:22:25.584
I was.

00:22:26.715 --> 00:22:40.224
This is the perfect encapsulation of it for me is that I was fully on Poe's side through that movie, like Poe's like, oh, these people who are in charge, they're not listening to us.

00:22:40.224 --> 00:22:41.106
We know what's right.

00:22:41.106 --> 00:22:44.403
We've got to go and do the thing that people in movies always do.

00:22:44.403 --> 00:22:45.385
Who are the heroes in the movie?

00:22:45.385 --> 00:22:48.823
And they go rogue and they fix the problem and they sort it out and they make everything better.

00:22:48.823 --> 00:22:53.362
And I was like, yeah, fuck, admiral Holdo for not telling him.

00:22:53.362 --> 00:22:54.881
Why wouldn't she just tell him the plan?

00:22:54.881 --> 00:22:56.078
And then none of that's what.

00:22:56.078 --> 00:22:57.123
None of that would have happened.

00:22:57.123 --> 00:22:59.196
They would all have survived if she told him the plan.

00:22:59.196 --> 00:23:02.579
And I had all those thoughts.

00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:03.641
Luke, never.

00:23:03.641 --> 00:23:14.432
You only saw the green lightsaber in flashback and that hurt me to my soul and just so much of it was weird.

00:23:14.432 --> 00:23:25.480
I didn't like the casino planet because there was this ticking clock with the fuel, but they do have time to stand on a balcony and look out over the view and I didn't like that and it felt a bit silly.

00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:35.823
And you get to the end and Luke has his death scene after facing down Kylo Ren, and again I was the visuals of Luke facing down Kylo Ren.

00:23:35.823 --> 00:23:36.765
I was like this is cool.

00:23:36.765 --> 00:23:48.240
This is cool, yeah, but it wasn't a big, involved, acrobatic, powerful fight, it was a samurai duel and Luke dodges everything and then he's not even there and then he dies.

00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.894
And he dies looking out over a twin sunset and I got emotional at that moment.

00:23:52.894 --> 00:23:54.695
It still hit me.

00:23:55.455 --> 00:23:57.537
But, yeah, I, I was.

00:23:57.537 --> 00:24:04.980
I wasn't frothingly angry and the thing is I can understand why a lot of people were.

00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:07.261
I really can.

00:24:07.261 --> 00:24:15.066
Were I in a worse place emotionally, for whatever reason, when I saw that movie?

00:24:15.066 --> 00:24:25.711
Or if I was a slightly different person not a worse person, but if I were a slightly different person from who I am, I might have been like this movie ruined everything.

00:24:25.711 --> 00:24:29.532
It destroyed the character, it did all of the no, absolutely not.

00:24:34.134 --> 00:24:48.195
And so it wasn't until I went back to see it in the cinema again and came around to it a bit more, but just a bit, and I was like, okay, right, I realized I went to this movie expecting certain things of luke specifically, like the other characters do.

00:24:48.195 --> 00:24:57.123
Whatever, I don't care, there are some plot hole things that I'm not a huge fan of, but luke was my problem and I actively had to sit myself down and go.

00:24:57.123 --> 00:25:06.226
Okay, what I wanted to see from my, my beloved character didn't happen, but that doesn't mean it's a bad movie.

00:25:06.226 --> 00:25:08.296
I just have to take.

00:25:08.296 --> 00:25:09.438
I I have to now.

00:25:09.438 --> 00:25:22.203
Instead of spending the whole film whenever luke's on screen being annoyed that he's not doing what I wanted, I need to actually pay attention to what he is doing and why, and really process that and see what I think about it.

00:25:22.203 --> 00:25:37.281
And that is what changed my feelings about the Last Jedi and made my love for the character of Luke just explode to an entirely new level, which sounds really hyperbolic and wanky.

00:25:37.281 --> 00:25:37.682
I'm sorry.

00:25:38.125 --> 00:25:38.705
No, that's okay.

00:25:38.705 --> 00:25:57.942
I completely understand and agree, because I was exactly the same way watching it and I think a lot of people were, because this character had been off our screens for 40 or something years and I think everybody had indulged themselves in some of the legend stories or at least some of the fan theories after the Force Awakened, and that expectation hit everybody.

00:25:57.942 --> 00:26:13.304
And because it's such a beloved character, a well-known character and like the face of a franchise character, everybody does expect so much of luke skywalker and when he comes and he doesn't meet those expectations, it's immediately just that knee-jerk reaction of this sucks and you know I can.

00:26:13.304 --> 00:26:14.626
I can understand and attest to that.

00:26:14.626 --> 00:26:47.357
But I think going back and looking at that character, as you said, through the perspective and the lens of what is actually happening here how is this character growing or what is what is this character going through and his, his feelings I think that's the way to approach this because, as I said to you before we started rolling, the way that this movie actually handled Luke Skywalker is probably one of my favorite things about this movie alignment with how his character was in the previous three films.

00:26:47.377 --> 00:26:49.843
Yeah, because you know he's always been that impulsive and emotional kind of jedi.

00:26:49.843 --> 00:26:55.061
He's not that that perfect stoic, taken from a young age and indoctrinated into the jedi.

00:26:55.061 --> 00:27:03.795
He's always been that emotional sort of does anything for his friends kind of jedi, to the point where he sees ben kenobi slain by darth vader.

00:27:03.795 --> 00:27:14.837
They've just gone in this massive stealth mission through the Death Star and he immediately exclaims no, reveals their position emotional outbursts can't control, it starts blasting again in Empire, you know.

00:27:14.897 --> 00:27:17.807
He leaves Dagobah, doesn't finish his training, goes and gets his hand cut off.

00:27:17.807 --> 00:27:42.376
He's always made these impulsive and emotional decisions and I'm wondering why the fandom was surprised when they saw him just about to cut down and slay Kylo Ren in that sort of moment again, where he had that impulsive episode and Mark Hamill, who plays Luke Skywalker, even said or as character Luke Skywalker, he said I had a moment of disbelief and that's all it was, but I was caught in that moment by Ben Solo and then all I had left was shame.

00:27:42.376 --> 00:27:45.321
So it's true to his character all the way through.

00:27:45.321 --> 00:27:48.887
He had that moment of shame, he had that moment of impulsivity, but he drew it back.

00:27:48.887 --> 00:28:02.358
It was just too late at that time and in the way that he did that he self-fulfilled that prophecy that he was fearing in the first place, and I think that's a really brilliant way to portray that character in the new form that he's in.

00:28:02.358 --> 00:28:05.923
And then he goes into his exile as well.

00:28:06.204 --> 00:28:24.443
Because even in Return of the Jedi, where he is, if we feel like he's at the height of his powers and he's done all of his training with Yoda and he's a Jedi, now, like you get to the end of the movie and he's stood next to the Emperor and the Emperor's like, right, all your friends are going to die.

00:28:24.443 --> 00:28:31.046
The only way you stop this is if you kill me, and if you kill me, you will turn to the dark side and I've won, yeah.

00:28:31.046 --> 00:28:38.728
And luke then just grabs his fucking lightsaber and tries to cut him in half and vader stops him yep, and so he's.

00:28:39.035 --> 00:28:42.820
Yeah, I completely agree, absolutely, totally agree it.

00:28:42.820 --> 00:28:44.423
It did fit the character.

00:28:44.423 --> 00:28:45.766
He's not perfect.

00:28:45.766 --> 00:29:00.637
We just had we had 30, 40 years of legends books where he was more perfect in a lot of ways, to have that idea of who the character would be when he came back.

00:29:00.637 --> 00:29:03.082
And it is.

00:29:03.082 --> 00:29:11.019
It is such a spectacular fall from grace what the character from, what we as the audience were expecting from that character.

00:29:11.019 --> 00:29:16.438
But then also the there's the beauty of that being ray's journey with it too.

00:29:16.438 --> 00:29:22.416
Yeah, and ray shows up and like this dude is the shit, he's the best he's gonna say stories about him.

00:29:22.436 --> 00:29:22.778
He's the legend.

00:29:22.778 --> 00:29:23.779
Yeah, he's gonna stories about him.

00:29:23.779 --> 00:29:24.522
He's the legend.

00:29:24.542 --> 00:29:25.987
Yeah, he's going to save the galaxy.

00:29:25.987 --> 00:29:29.859
He is going to stand up, kill all, the First Order and everything's going to be fine.

00:29:29.859 --> 00:29:33.505
And then she has the same reaction as us.

00:29:33.505 --> 00:29:35.942
It's like huh, what?

00:29:35.942 --> 00:29:39.872
What are you doing to that seal thing?

00:29:39.872 --> 00:29:41.296
Oh Jesus, why are you drinking that?

00:29:41.296 --> 00:29:41.415
You?

00:29:41.455 --> 00:30:10.501
know, yeah, it's like even seen of disgust on her face when she was like I've seen what you do, you're not busy, you can come and help, yeah, yeah, I think that part where Ray was introduced is very much like she's the audience's character in that moment, like she is living through that disappointment as we are, and I think that and you know what it kind of it probably evokes the right feeling from the audience, like the audience should have felt disappointed in Luke and the director, rianne or Ryan Ryan yeah, ryan Johnson.

00:30:10.501 --> 00:30:23.951
He probably wanted that sort of disappointment and wanted to tell the story that not all Star Wars fans expected, but also probably the most true story to Luke's character, because that's amazing pressure as a director and a writer to go into.

00:30:23.951 --> 00:30:27.845
Yeah, I think he at least pulled that part of the story off quite well.

00:30:28.934 --> 00:30:41.145
There is also, I really feel for Rian Johnson, and I think he's made an incredible movie and did an amazing job with so, so much of it.

00:30:41.145 --> 00:30:58.865
But now that in retrospect we know that Disney didn't have a through-line plan and that JJ Abrams was like right, I'm doing my mystery box thing and Luke is the mystery box and he had the luxury of going, luke's exiled himself.

00:30:58.865 --> 00:30:59.256
Why?

00:30:59.256 --> 00:31:00.662
Who fucking cares, I don't know.

00:31:01.476 --> 00:31:02.882
The next guy can figure it out, yeah.

00:31:03.355 --> 00:31:07.818
And so Rian Johnson then has to be like don't know, yeah, the next guy can figure out.

00:31:07.818 --> 00:31:08.058
Yeah, yeah.

00:31:08.058 --> 00:31:13.188
And so ryan johnson then has to be like okay, what, what, why, why has luke not been helping and it had to be pivotal enough.

00:31:13.268 --> 00:31:18.114
It had to be big enough for luke for the audience to believe that luke would have exiled himself and not gone back.

00:31:18.114 --> 00:31:22.665
Yeah, and that's incredible pressure, like because that whole first movie of the force awakens.

00:31:22.665 --> 00:31:33.006
That was a build, it was a build and a build and a build and a build, to the point where we finally see and I couldn't imagine getting thrown the script paper at that point and go finish it what do you do Now?

00:31:33.006 --> 00:31:33.487
What happens?

00:31:33.487 --> 00:31:34.709
Go on, ryan, try.

00:31:36.955 --> 00:31:59.640
And I don't doubt that there would be other ways that you could do it Like he's found the source of the dark side and he's there because he only by him being there, using all his powers, can he contain it, or some other like there's plenty of other things that could have happened fine, yeah, um, but the solution that ryan johnson came up with I think was great, absolutely great.

00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:20.404
As far as luke's character goes, I do have I have issues with some of the tone and some of the the like performance notes, like ray daisy ridley being there and being sort of perplexed and like she's daisy ridley's a good actress, like she's not she's she.

00:32:20.424 --> 00:32:21.248
She does a good job.

00:32:21.248 --> 00:32:26.885
You, you see real emotion coming through and she can perform highly emotive scenes really well.

00:32:26.885 --> 00:32:37.923
And so my assumption is she was directed to just be a bit frustrated with Luke and like she's just a bit, like she's impatient and she's like oh come on, aren't you going to train me?

00:32:37.923 --> 00:32:40.121
Oh God, just going to follow him around again.

00:32:40.121 --> 00:32:44.046
And actually I think that she should have been more angry.

00:32:44.046 --> 00:32:46.839
I think that she should have been more angry.

00:32:47.221 --> 00:32:51.388
I think that it might have helped the tone of the film.

00:32:51.388 --> 00:33:01.026
It might have helped the audience to reconcile their anger and confusion more if she, as a character, was even more like what are you doing?

00:33:01.026 --> 00:33:02.441
What are you doing, man?

00:33:02.441 --> 00:33:06.894
And there are other performance notes for the movie itself.

00:33:06.894 --> 00:33:08.157
I'm going off on a tangent now.

00:33:08.157 --> 00:33:09.280
I'm sorry, that's okay, I'm.

00:33:09.280 --> 00:33:17.916
I'm going through the things that I still don't like as much in the last year so that when I just start saying everything that I love about it, I've got them in the way.

00:33:17.916 --> 00:33:30.030
The uh, hoedammeren waiting on hold for Hux right at the beginning of the movie, yep, is just a scooch over the line into silly.

00:33:32.875 --> 00:33:35.843
I've heard that as being described as starting the movie off with a like a your mum joke.

00:33:35.843 --> 00:33:36.463
Yeah, yeah, he's just like.

00:33:36.463 --> 00:33:37.446
Yeah, exactly it is.

00:33:38.415 --> 00:33:40.079
And in isolation.

00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:42.826
I'm like that's a funny scene.

00:33:42.826 --> 00:33:49.878
But for a space movie for kids like Donald Gleeson performs that bit really well when he's like, can he hear me?

00:33:49.878 --> 00:34:03.820
Yeah, yeah, he can, and all those notes work, the timing works, the idea that he is doing it to distract them so that he can get in and clear the surface cannons off the Dreadnought, that all kind of makes sense.

00:34:03.820 --> 00:34:07.215
But there's just the execution of it.

00:34:07.215 --> 00:34:14.101
I wonder if they were like, oh, things are going to get pretty heavy in this movie later on, let's start it off and be as fun as possible.

00:34:14.101 --> 00:34:16.166
But then it's like, okay, yeah, super fun, super fun.

00:34:16.166 --> 00:34:17.378
Oh my god, all the bombers have died.

00:34:17.378 --> 00:34:18.019
Oh my god, this.

00:34:18.019 --> 00:34:21.940
This girl who was terrified for her life just crashed and burned, yeah, into in a fiery death.

00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:26.188
Oh jesus, yeah, zero to ten in the space of time.

00:34:26.228 --> 00:34:26.349
Yeah.

00:34:27.096 --> 00:34:40.764
I do like how Poe's scene there where he's with Donald Gleeson, general Hux, it is then juxtaposed with the scene of him just absolutely cutting sick across that dreadnought's base and just that's a beautiful scene too.

00:34:40.764 --> 00:34:51.320
Like you said before, it's a very beautiful movie, like Star Wars-wise Him taking out those defensive cannons solo, might I add.

00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:53.951
Um, he, he's probably like top three best pilots in the entire star wars canon and you see it on display.

00:34:53.951 --> 00:34:54.152
Yeah, it's.

00:34:54.152 --> 00:35:03.219
It's like there's moments like that through this movie as well, you know, but it is peppered with, like you said, the the scene prior where it's just a little bit too much tongue-in-cheek.

00:35:03.219 --> 00:35:07.509
You know, character of General Hux is like how is this guy the leader of the Imperial force?

00:35:07.509 --> 00:35:09.862
Like that little bit of disbelief.

00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:28.206
And then my biggest thing with the Last Jedi is the way that they handled some of the characters that they established for this new sequel franchise, because I think that, as we said, they did do quite well with Luke's sort of journey, even though it wasn't received that way to start with.

00:35:28.206 --> 00:35:31.264
But, for example, most notably the character of Finn.

00:35:31.264 --> 00:35:47.103
I think his character throughout the movie just didn't get the justice that he kind of deserved, because I feel like the Force Awakened kind of led him up to feel like he was going to be that lightsaber wielding Force, sensitive Jedi.

00:35:47.103 --> 00:35:53.001
Did you want to discuss your thoughts on how Finn's character was was treated throughout the last Jedi movie?

00:35:53.001 --> 00:35:54.525
What were your thoughts?

00:35:56.277 --> 00:35:58.253
I see what I found interesting.

00:35:58.253 --> 00:36:05.523
I never, ever, picked up on the fact that they were, that they might've been setting him up to be force sensitive.

00:36:05.523 --> 00:36:14.603
And after the rise of Skywalker, and again, where, when I first watched the film, totally oblivious, every time he was like right, I wanted to tell you something.

00:36:14.603 --> 00:36:16.380
I was like, is he going to say he loves her?

00:36:16.380 --> 00:36:17.543
Oh, fuck off.

00:36:17.543 --> 00:36:22.621
No, and I think I was just having like, yeah, you want to get me onto a Star Wars film?

00:36:22.621 --> 00:36:23.364
I really don't like.

00:36:23.364 --> 00:36:45.942
But I think I was so primed yeah, I was I was so primed to assume that they were doing the stupidest fucking thing that they could in that movie that I still was like when, when someone says, yeah, obviously he's going to say that he can use that he's for sensitive, and you go and then you watch it again, you're like, oh, yeah, of course I'm.

00:36:45.942 --> 00:36:49.900
I'm such an idiot, but at the time didn't get it at all, and so I was.

00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:59.447
I would agree he definitely doesn't get that much, that he's just kind of poe dameron's proxy, that him and he and poe are kind of the same character.

00:36:59.447 --> 00:37:32.929
Really, yeah, he's got a little bit of the oh, he's a coward and he wants to run away and he wants to save Ray, who he's known for like three days and and so I almost think it would be better if he was running away, because he was scared and then was just like oh wait, I can save Ray as well, but it's they play it like it's all about saving Rey and that's what matters to him most, when it would play better if he was really being cowardly and being like no, I, I'm not going to die here.

00:37:32.929 --> 00:37:35.719
I don't want to die here because he was an ex-stormtrooper.

00:37:35.798 --> 00:37:48.784
I think it would be good if he was going to then go back and free or liberate or try and help other stormtroopers in the same sort of vein as himself, like that would have been a better way to develop his character, you know.

00:37:49.186 --> 00:37:51.679
Yeah, and there's all of the.

00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:53.925
I don't think it's conjecture anymore.

00:37:53.925 --> 00:38:00.902
As far as I know, the script for Colin Trevorrow's episode nine that has done the rounds is the real thing.

00:38:00.902 --> 00:38:02.005
And he would have done that.

00:38:02.005 --> 00:38:10.161
He would have gone back in and convinced a whole shed load of stormtroopers to rebel against the first order, and that would have been amazing and that was a dropped ball.

00:38:10.161 --> 00:38:17.298
Um, but, yeah, I, so I think that he, yeah, he's a very functional character within the story.

00:38:17.298 --> 00:38:21.989
Poe has the journey of oh, sometimes I don't know best.

00:38:21.989 --> 00:38:28.257
The journey of oh, sometimes I don't know best.

00:38:28.257 --> 00:38:28.938
Sometimes I need to be humbled.

00:38:28.938 --> 00:38:29.338
Yeah, I, I, I need to.

00:38:29.338 --> 00:38:30.121
I, I have to stop being so reckless.

00:38:30.121 --> 00:38:45.288
I have to trust that if someone who is a higher rank than me says they have a plan and they're not going to tell me, you know in it, and so getting on to the thing of hold on not telling him the plan as far as she is concerned in the first watch, you're on Poe's side.

00:38:45.288 --> 00:38:46.858
You're like what is she doing?

00:38:47.019 --> 00:38:48.143
She's such an idiot.

00:38:48.755 --> 00:38:50.583
And then I went back and I was like, okay, hang on.

00:38:50.583 --> 00:38:52.239
Imagine you're a vice admiral.

00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:56.865
This dude he's a great pilot, but he just got a whole bunch of people killed.

00:38:56.865 --> 00:39:00.701
Your entire bomber fleet has been destroyed, destroyed, and you're one of your oldest friends.

00:39:00.701 --> 00:39:03.346
Final acts in command was to demote him.

00:39:03.346 --> 00:39:05.717
It like you've got other things in your mind.

00:39:05.717 --> 00:39:07.442
I don't have time to deal with you.

00:39:07.442 --> 00:39:08.826
You idiot, piss off.

00:39:08.826 --> 00:39:10.476
You'll find out when you need to know.

00:39:10.476 --> 00:39:13.202
And and poe learns that journey.

00:39:13.202 --> 00:39:34.829
And and finn is just kind of an accessory to learning that journey and he does get the nice moment at the end where he he goes from the polar opposite of running away to escape this whole situation of being a coward to the ultimate brave thing of trying to sacrifice himself to save everyone.

00:39:34.829 --> 00:39:39.559
Yes, and Rose stopping him, and that's an interesting.

00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:49.867
Those are two cool ends of an arc to go from one to the other of, but the journey in between could have been a bit better executed, I agree.

00:39:50.175 --> 00:40:00.639
Do you think Finn's arc and Finn's story would have been better and more well-received if he actually followed through with that destruction of the Death Star mini-weapon, if that was where it ended for him?

00:40:01.061 --> 00:40:08.302
Maybe that's really hard to say On a kind of business level.

00:40:08.302 --> 00:40:17.860
It wouldn't have been a good look for Disney for them to be like hey guys, we've got a main character who's black, and he's a main character and then he dies.

00:40:17.860 --> 00:40:18.521
That's true.

00:40:18.521 --> 00:40:28.184
I wonder if there was a version of it where that happened and then maybe someone was like let's not do that.

00:40:28.184 --> 00:40:40.047
Yeah, but I think I really love the sentiment of Rose saving him and the sentiment of we're not going to win by fighting what we hate.

00:40:40.047 --> 00:40:41.739
We win by saving what we love.

00:40:41.739 --> 00:40:42.722
That's a good point.

00:40:42.722 --> 00:40:45.960
It's gorgeous, it's absolutely beautiful.

00:40:48.101 --> 00:40:52.844
I just got goosebumps saying those words because conceptually, that's a really powerful thing.

00:40:52.844 --> 00:41:05.563
That I think, being someone who is further over on the left of politics and who is very angry at the UK Conservative government and lots of things that have happened and continue to happen in this country.

00:41:05.563 --> 00:41:17.409
There is so much hate and if and it often isn't productive to hate or hate can be a powerful motivating force.

00:41:17.409 --> 00:41:18.378
There's no doubt about that.

00:41:18.378 --> 00:41:27.117
Um, but framing conversations in no, we're not trying to destroy that necessarily, we are trying to save this is wonderful.

00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:34.536
So the fact that he didn't die, at the very least, has they came up with a good way to get out of that.

00:41:34.536 --> 00:41:53.327
But any, any political is the wrong word but any concerns at potential backlash or accusations of callousness, with a black character being killed off, however excellent and emotional that would be for the story.

00:41:53.327 --> 00:42:11.289
If all of that could be put to the side, then it would have been a good way for that character, for that character's journey to go, if it, if, like if finn rebelling against the first order so much was part of the legend.

00:42:11.289 --> 00:42:15.103
So it wasn't just luke standing up to everyone and that message getting around the galaxy.

00:42:15.103 --> 00:42:21.581
It was this guy, was a stormtrooper and he sacrificed himself to save the rebellion as well.

00:42:21.581 --> 00:42:27.416
As luke skywalker showed up, then that could have been really cool too.

00:42:27.456 --> 00:42:28.664
Yeah, impactful, I think.

00:42:28.664 --> 00:42:31.697
But you know what you've made me see it from a different perspective today as well.

00:42:31.697 --> 00:42:44.744
Like the, the rescuing of bin by rose I I always saw it as a point of annoyance because I did see it in that, in that fashion that you just mentioned, where that would have him uprising against the first order and giving him that last fuck.

00:42:44.744 --> 00:43:07.262
You pretty much would be a really great NT's character, but also, you know, fighting for the things that you love, seeing Rose come through to rescue him and impacting that sort of powerful quote to spur on the rest of the series and then accentuated by then, luke coming back and fulfilling his arc once again through his sacrifice for the people that he loved, which is completely in character for Luke.

00:43:07.922 --> 00:43:20.061
It kind of does work and it ties it off pretty well but do you think that and this is a this is a really, really subjective question to ask anyone how do you feel about the discussion around?

00:43:20.061 --> 00:43:24.427
Is it a failing of the film that it doesn't?

00:43:24.427 --> 00:43:35.686
Uh, that there are so many ways to look at the bits of this film that make people that really piss people off, and there are ways you can view it that make it make sense.

00:43:35.686 --> 00:43:41.559
And you can, and you have conversations with people, you view it a couple of times and you and you to change your mind.

00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:47.610
Is it a failing on the filmmaker's part that that intent?

00:43:47.610 --> 00:43:51.806
If those were the intentions, which I presume that they were?

00:43:51.806 --> 00:43:55.626
Like Rian Johnson, he's done Knives Out and Glass Onion.

00:43:55.626 --> 00:44:00.541
He knows what he's doing with the story and scripts, so I presume that was his intention.

00:44:00.541 --> 00:44:04.376
Was he being too subtle for his own good, and is that a failing?

00:44:04.376 --> 00:44:11.949
Or is it a good thing to make the audience have to work through their own emotions before they can take the film as what?

00:44:11.969 --> 00:44:12.170
it is.

00:44:12.170 --> 00:44:26.724
You do want a movie that's cohesive, because there are a lot of hearts involved, a lot of history involved, a lot of anger if you get it wrong.

00:44:26.724 --> 00:44:34.778
And then, on the other hand, I'm a person who watches movies, who does like to think, and I do like to be surprised, and I do like to have the thing happen that I did not expect.

00:44:34.778 --> 00:44:40.884
And I think Rian Johnson definitely sort of went into that vein and I think he also kind of had the mentality of um.

00:44:40.884 --> 00:44:48.688
He also had the mentality of um not appeasing or not attending to the star wars fanboys or the star wars fandom.

00:44:48.688 --> 00:45:03.527
Uh, in the way that you know, just because you think this is going to happen and this is your expectation, this is your fan theory, I'm not going to to do that because you know then I'm just appeasing fans with the movie that I'm making and you know I will say that that kind of did happen in the following movie, the episode nine.

00:45:03.527 --> 00:45:04.027
That did happen.

00:45:04.027 --> 00:45:06.242
You know we all can see what that resulted in.

00:45:06.855 --> 00:45:20.541
So I think, to answer your question, I think it is a perfectly good way to make a film, to leave your audience sort of questioning and give them the benefit of, and I've said it before in episodes previous don't believe that your audience is an idiot.

00:45:20.541 --> 00:45:22.402
Let them sort of put the things together themselves.

00:45:22.402 --> 00:45:23.820
Allow for a rewatch.

00:45:23.820 --> 00:45:27.686
You know some movies you can't discuss like we're discussing this now.

00:45:27.686 --> 00:45:30.021
You know there are points to talk about.

00:45:30.021 --> 00:45:33.380