March 28, 2025

Gabriel (2007) - Part Two: The Untapped Potential of Purgatory and the Powerful Character Arcs of Gabriel and Michael.

Episode Summary:

We explore the character arcs of Gabriel, Sammael/Michael, and the fallen angels. We analyze Gabriel's journey from righteous archangel to grappling with humanity, his relationships, and pivotal moments.

Aaron and Brash dissect Samuel's transformation as Michael, leader of the fallen, and his redemption.

“You threw me far from grace and now I fall onto it.” - Gabriel

Join us as we unravel themes of innocence, corruption, sacrifice, and the battle between light/darkness in Purgatory.

Topics:

Andy Whitfield's portrayal of Gabriel.
Gabriel's righteousness vs. Purgatory's darkness.
Gabriel's turning point; confrontation with Asmodeus.
Sammael/Michael's complex character.
Climax: Gabriel's battle with Michael.
Significance of Gabriel's final act; missing end credit scene.
World-building/setting in "Gabriel".

Key Takeaways:

Whitfield's Gabriel captures innocence and struggle.
Gabriel's fall is symbolized by changes and internal conflict.
Gabriel/Michael's relationship highlights love, betrayal, redemption.
Michael's transformation and sacrifice show gray areas of good/evil.
The ending's interpretation is affected by the missing scene.
Purgatory's world-building has potential but needs development.

Apple Podcast Tags:

Gabriel, Andy Whitfield, Purgatory, fallen angels, character analysis, film discussion, action, fantasy, Australian cinema, Geek Freaks, film review, movie analysis, sci-fi, thriller, supernatural

Instagram: instagram.com/fandomportals/?locale=en
Threads: threads.net/@fandomportals
Email: fandomportals@gmail.com
Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/fandomportals

Chapters

00:15 - Welcome to Fandom Portals

00:46 - Gabriel's Mission in Purgatory

05:46 - Gabriel's Character Journey

12:39 - Sammael's Secrets Revealed

18:02 - The Fall Onto Grace

26:48 - Story World of Purgatory and Pacing

45:11 - Rating Gabriel and Final Thoughts

Transcript

WEBVTT

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welcome to the fandom portals podcast, the podcast that explores how fandoms can help you learn and grow.

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Guys, we are back.

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I'm here with brash.

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How are you going, brash?

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I am very well yourself.

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I am awesome.

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I am very, very good.

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All right, this is part two of our gabriel episode.

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So if you haven't listened to part one, it is in our list.

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Make sure you go and check it out.

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Uh, in that episode, we talked all about how they made this movie on such a minuscule budget and we also went to our fandom fact face off where we told you some very awesome information about the uh, some of the cast and some of the production techniques of these.

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So in this episode, uh, we're actually going to be talking pretty in depth about the characters of gabriel and also the character of samuel and michael.

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We're going to be looking at our real deal segments and we're going to be finishing off with our mvts, where we tell you our most valuable takeaway from the movie of gabriel, a movie that is indeed a battle between the archangels and the fallen in the realm called Purgatory.

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It stars Gabriel, who actually comes down to save the city's souls and the inhabitants from the darkness.

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That is the fallen's rule.

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All right, brash, without any further ado, let's jump into our Popcorn Perspectives segment.

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All right, everybody.

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The Popcorn Perspectives segment is where the hosts take the characters from the media and analyze their development and growth through the movie.

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We express to our co-host how this character should be viewed in your opinion and the meaningful connections that that character makes in terms of its character arc.

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So we're looking at two characters today, brash.

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We're looking at Gabriel, the title character, and we're looking at Samuel slash, michael, and we might take a look at Gabriel first.

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He is played by Andy Whitfield, and you like Andy Whitfield, don't you?

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I do, I do.

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I've watched all of or most people have probably known him from Spartacus, blood and Sand.

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I've watched pretty much all of that.

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It also has Lucy Lawless and other things.

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Xena, xena, my warrior princess.

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Tell me you grew up in the 90s at that time.

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Tell me you grew up in the 90s.

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All right, xena and Hercules, love them, power couple.

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And then when they crossed over, but we digress, digress, we digress.

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Yeah.

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So Andy, phenomenal actor, even well, he was kind of quick acting until he got the role of Gabriel.

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So we could have never had Andy Whitfield as Spartacus if it wasn't for Gabriel.

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So everyone who loves Andy in Spartacus, get down on your knees and thank you to Australian film thank you to Australian film for giving Andy the role of Gabriel.

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Very good, yeah, but yes, I don't know.

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Unfortunately he's no longer with us couldn't quite finish.

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Spartacus unfortunately passed away from cancer, which is a bitch.

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I've had a few family members die of cancer as well, so it was tough and rough and the fact that it shows his and probably why, as we said in the first episode, the dedication that the cast and the crew like took on this movie.

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He drew Spartacus, pretty much the whole of Spartacus.

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Well sick, he had cancer at one he threw.

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Spartacus, pretty much the whole of Spartacus Sick, yeah, sick.

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He had cancer at one point, then a sort of rhythmic recession, then it came back again, but through the whole time he was fighting an illness while fighting in the sand.

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So then, this shows the dedication of all the people in Gabriel as well, the fact that they are willing to just push through the tough times to get through and finish the project.

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This will probably go a little further on to my MVP, probably later on, the dedication, but also the faith that everyone had in the movie itself.

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But I digress again.

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Yeah, andy Gabriel, probably one of my favourite archangels, I.

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I love his portrayal in this because he, throughout the whole time movie like for the most part of the movie he is this, he almost, he's almost like um, this wide-eyed foal, like baby deer yeah, he's just he's like just in a new land, in new land, new land, learning to be a human for the first time.

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He's just like goes up and he's like and he portrays that sort of heavenly hope.

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He's always like.

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They're like oh, hide your light.

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He's like don't, brother, show your light, we are archangels.

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And they're like no, they'll send you and kill you.

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He's and they're like maybe they'll censure and kill you.

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He's like let them try.

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He's just so positive and like he's righteous, isn't he?

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he's got that sort of righteousness and it's also that younger brother, sort of sort of pep.

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Yeah, it's almost like that impulsive innocence of ignorance where you've got the Michael, where he's all like he's jaded and been here for a long time.

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He's the older brother yeah, then you got Lucifer who's like the renegade misfit.

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And then you got the younger brother.

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Who's the?

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Come on, guys, we got this that's exactly what Gabriel's like, yeah and for the most part of the movie that's exactly what he's like yeah, he's always willing to help, always trying to pep everyone up and he's like, oh, we can band together.

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Yeah, that's exactly what he tries to do at the start of the movie.

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Hey, he falls from grace, comes down to this purgatory realm with the mission to try and save the inhabitants of purgatory from the fallen who have taken over the realm.

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When he gets there, he starts to learn a lot about the fact that.

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Well, he starts to learn a lot about being human.

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You know, uriel actually has to tell him you're going to get hungry, don't forget to eat.

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And apparently there was lots of scenes that were cut out that showed Gabriel really just getting used to his human form.

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Fun fact, the movie originally cut was three hours long but they had to reduce it to a two hour sort of run time for their audience.

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But it cut away a lot of those scenes it showed a lot of scenes of.

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It gave more context to gabriel coming down and his innocence and him learning to be in the purgatory space perfect for a show yeah, it gave a lot of like context to that purgatory space.

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He obviously came down and started looking for for allies in this, which shows his eagerness, and he was basically trying to enlist, wasn't he?

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Because because uriel was there, he was um looking for.

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You know, rafael was, was missing at this time, ethereal, it was clear the darkness had taken over, he might need some help absolutely, and you know, the whole whole place was just a desolate, dystopian land and he came down and he sort of started to wonder why all his brothers had previously failed in the mission that they were sent down to do and that sort of perplexed him and that was that interaction with Uriel and that that's what really got me into the movie, that interaction with Uriel where he's, he's talking to his, his brother, who is defeated, downtrodden and basically refusing to help because he thought it was a lost cause, and then Gabriel's still going on even after that to to actually want to fight this fight.

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Um, I want to talk to you because maybe you can shed some light on this for me about one of the more interesting parts of this movie for me was he had his fall and then he obviously started to be in purgatory for a long time, uriel having warned him that this realm will infect him and he'll start to obviously feel things that the people of this plane feel and it may corrupt him.

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And we actually see a scene where he's battling as modius, where you can see his eyes change from that vibrant angelic blue to like a brownie gold, which indicates sort of a fallen, sort of uh complex which we know from this movie, that um samuel michael was obviously had transitioned into a fallen as well, and he starts to make that change too.

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So I was wondering if you could talk to me about, like, his fall there and how that kind of impacted him, because he did start as we talked about as that really sort of.

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He was the one who really wanted to push that mission.

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He really wanted to save these people in purgatory.

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He wanted to recruit all his brothers to do so, and then the darkness started happening to him where he kind of lost all of his brothers in the explosion.

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The Fallen started to come after.

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Lilith taking out Uriel.

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But the thing is well, and to be fair, it was his fault.

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So he tried rallying these troops that weren't really ready for a fight or not really willing to fight, and he brought them in and said, come on, let's fight.

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And they were all like well, Raphael was injured, Ethereal was in hiding.

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Ethereal was hiding In the soup kitchen.

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In the soup kitchen.

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Yeah, he was looking after Raphael and just trying to do what he can by running a soup kitchen.

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But that's the most he was willing to put out running a soup kitchen but that's the most he was willing to put out.

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He completely gave up on any sort of fighting.

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Jade had been humiliated too.

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Amatiel.

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She humiliated and lost her wings so she could realistically no longer even fight on the same level as anyone else.

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Uriel had completely shut himself off, cut himself off from the Anjo power and was out on the outskirts hiding so that no one would ever realistically be able to find him.

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He would just stay out there forever and not interact with anyone, only going in, probably to get supplies.

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And then I guess that kind of guilt that he felt and then obviously the rage after that that he goes through starts to become a bit of a problem, because he he starts to see and have this challenge of identity, I guess you could say, because he always did see himself as that righteous individual, one that would follow the mission.

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He came down to do something very important and he almost kind of failed in that.

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So I guess he he then went and battled as modius in, uh, his realm.

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I think I know you're getting that.

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I think I know you're getting that.

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I think I know you're coming towards.

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This is probably the most similar part to the crow.

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So in the crow, when he um kills bum boy and the mother's there and he heals the mother and that sort of brings him back from this complete destructive path he was on.

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Same thing happens with Gabriel, with Asmodeus.

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Yeah, he fights Asmodeus.

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He's pretty much killed nearly everyone else except for Lillith yeah, and he fights us.

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But yeah, he's a brutal with a shotgun.

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I really enjoyed this fight scene.

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I reckon it's the best fight scene in the movie.

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I think this one trumps the climax, this one and their first one, and the first one, I reckon, was pretty good too, with Moloch, yeah.

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With the knives, yeah.

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Where it's really close-knit and they're just like pretty much.

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They use silhouette really well in that fight too yeah.

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And it's pretty much like a fight like you see in the Matrix where, like, neo and Agent Smith are just sitting like basically just face-to-face and they're just throwing punches but they're doing really quick movements and that's.

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I really enjoy that.

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But yeah, it's the Asmodeus fight.

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It's probably one of my favorite fights.

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Then afterwards he sees the woman who I don't know if you knew this, but Asmodeus because it doesn't really say it in the movie.

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But Asmodeus because he's like the lust and all that kind of stuff, but he loves himself so much he was actually trying to change that woman into him oh that, yeah, that blonde woman.

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He's trying to reconfigure her to make her look like him, so she'd be a mirror image of himself.

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So, yeah, that's the thing.

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And when gabriel sees that, his grace pretty much uses nearly all of his power to revert her back to how she originally was, yeah, uh, that sort of rekindles the fact that, yeah, he's not like, yes, he's brothers and sisters and all that might have perished, but he's there to help people, not hurt people.

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And I think him healing her and fixing what was done to her by Asmodeus sort of rekindles his reason for being there and brings him back to his.

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I'm here to help.

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That is my purpose because, yeah, I definitely think he does lose his purpose in that moment of trauma where he loses all of his brothers, but then in that fight scene as well, there was also the moment where he turns and sees the young child and then the, the other woman, uh, that he spares as well, so that the directors and filmmakers are really trying to say, in this world of absolute corruption, and he does feel this anger and this resentment, but he still has a line that he won't cross, like he still has this thing that is good about him and he has a mission and a purpose that he's very much enlightened to.

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Yeah, well, he's true, because when he turns and puts a gun at the kid and he sees the fear in the kid's eyes and it's like, he's like and sees the um, she plays a pretty um, naomi Orment.

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She plays Candy, who's the woman he finds out where Jade went, yeah, yeah, and then she rocks up again.

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But she is actually the first person who actually was semi-decent.

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Yeah in a way, yeah, in the purgatory realm.

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In the purgatory realm, yeah yeah, she's because everyone else he's met so far been sort of scum sort of things.

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But then it's her and though she's like, oh, I can't give away her location, blah, blah, blah.

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She's probably like the first person that's actually just been sort of relatively not like normal, like unlike Alan Flower, I think it is who plays Jakes.

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He's the bouncer at the front of the thing, who's just a CD man, cd drug dealing, yeah but yeah, he turns around and puts a gun on a kid.

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Kid's scared and he sees the fear in the kid's eyes and realizes I'm scaring an innocent, he's innocent and I'm scaring him.

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That's not what I'm here to do.

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And then kills the other, kills the Asmodeus girl, and finds his purpose again.

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And I think that sort of leads him into the, to the climax, where he then goes and faces samayal and we might talk a little bit about samayal and michael and then we'll sort of talk about the, the climax, because I have some questions for you about the climax that I don't really that I want some clarity on.

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So so when we're talking about michael and samayal obviously played by duane stevenson, he's one of the higher ranking angels who ends up becoming a fallen.

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He has his own internal conflict about the heaven and hell sort of situation in Purgatory.

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He's very aware of the stakes that are involved in this sort of cosmic space and he's actually like he ends up killing the Ark, samael and taking his place.

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So Michael ends up killing Samael and then Michael takes his place and becomes Samael and the leader of the fallen and that's the big twist in the climax for everybody, his most pivotal moment.

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He's a very sort of high ranking and commanding presence, as we talked about for Dwayne Stevenson.

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He's this person that has this ability and power to command all of his forces around.

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But he always seems to have this soft spot for Gabriel throughout.

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He always sort of doesn't want him and that's a through line through the whole movie, you know, and it's almost like a foreshadowing of the event that was to come.

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Like he never really wants his fallen brothers to hurt Gabriel, he does go out to hurt the others, but he doesn't sort of hurt Gabriel because Michael loved Gabriel the most.

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Yeah, he could feel himself turning in this moment and that's where we see in the loft at the very start, when Gabriel goes and finds Michael's belongings, finds the note slipped in the mirror.

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He actually sees Michael giving his belongings to Gabriel.

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So he still has that internal hope inside him that somebody can get the job done.

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It's almost like he gave up and he knows that it can't be him, because he's felt that corruption, that corruption of purgatory, has leaked into his being and made him become what he is now becoming.

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With that in mind, you know he does this.

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We'll talk about the climax.

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Now we move into this fight scene between Gabriel and Michael, where Gabriel realizes that Samuel is in fact Michael and they end up fighting each other and killing one another.

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Basically, Say my name.

00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:50.544
Yeah, say it.

00:15:50.544 --> 00:15:53.164
That's probably the worst piece of dialogue in the whole movie, just by the way.

00:15:53.164 --> 00:15:54.986
That whole sort of emotional sequence.

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I couldn't get behind that.

00:15:56.606 --> 00:15:58.304
But the twist was good.

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I liked that twist.

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Gabriel and Michael sort of fight each other and end up killing one another and then Michael ends up offering a last sort of moment of grace where he heals Gabriel and it's almost like he's trying to move beyond his own mistake or he's you know.

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It's like a call to balance where he knows that there is this massive amount of darkness in the world.

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So he uses his last little piece of light and grace to heal that corruption in the last way that he can.

00:16:27.142 --> 00:16:41.561
I also thought that it probably could have been a way for michael to stop gabriel from fully succumbing to that darkness that he know he had tasted before and then you know he, he obviously loved him and it was that selfless act of love as well and that sacrifice.

00:16:41.561 --> 00:16:54.591
So I think michael goes through this transition, or Samuel goes through this transition where he's feeling hopelessness in a very bad sort of situation, but he knows that the right way is to bring the light back.

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He just wasn't able to do it himself.

00:16:56.355 --> 00:17:04.426
So he empowered Gabriel to do it and I think when I first watched that, when he healed Gabriel, I was a little bit confused about why he did that.

00:17:04.426 --> 00:17:12.286
But upon thinking about it I think it definitely was the fact that that lighter side of him was already always there which makes him probably a really compelling character.

00:17:12.326 --> 00:17:12.606
For me.

00:17:12.606 --> 00:17:23.991
It's a really sort of redemptive act and I think he has this moment of clarity and this healing and he really helps Gabriel to understand his place in this battle just through that act of healing him.

00:17:23.991 --> 00:17:30.325
It brings this sense of hope because it says, okay, the light can still come back and Gabriel's the one that's able to do it.

00:17:30.325 --> 00:17:38.470
And it shows you that sort of redemption is always possible, because he was as fallen as you could really get in the situation that he was in.

00:17:38.470 --> 00:17:43.386
It kind of puts that area of gray into the black and white of it all.

00:17:43.386 --> 00:17:57.243
And my question for you, I guess, is in regards going back to Gabriel After this sort of happens, and after Michael slash Samuel heals him, he makes the choice then to go and throw himself off a building and I guess I didn't really get that.

00:17:57.243 --> 00:17:59.089
I don't know why he kind of did that.

00:17:59.320 --> 00:18:10.849
So thought of all, I believe, is because if he hadn't, he would have been taken back up by the lights, and then the process starts again.

00:18:10.849 --> 00:18:14.665
Darkness sends more darkness, fire sends more light.

00:18:14.665 --> 00:18:15.989
The war continues.

00:18:15.989 --> 00:18:16.790
The war continues.

00:18:16.790 --> 00:18:19.563
Okay, he decided.

00:18:19.563 --> 00:18:23.633
And because when they go back up, they forget.

00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:25.527
Oh yeah, because he said that to Jade, didn't he?

00:18:25.527 --> 00:18:28.787
This would be the last time I see you and I won't remember our time together, yeah.

00:18:30.025 --> 00:18:30.607
Yeah, they forget.

00:18:30.607 --> 00:18:34.846
So if he went to go back up to light he would have forgotten cycle would continue.

00:18:34.846 --> 00:19:01.607
So he wanted to and this is why I think that the um and courtesy and credit scene, the fact that they cut that out from australian cinema which I thought was weird I think it was in the american one that wasn't in the australian one cutting it out, I think really ruined at the end I believe so too, because, for context, everybody in the end, michael sorry, not Michael Gabriel throws himself off of the building to essentially end the cycle.

00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:03.286
Light shines upon the city again.

00:19:03.286 --> 00:19:06.990
Jade is standing in a window of the loft and in comes Gabriel.

00:19:07.579 --> 00:19:08.502
Yeah and yeah.

00:19:08.502 --> 00:19:11.111
That's the end credit scene where Gabriel comes in.

00:19:11.111 --> 00:19:18.425
He's almost in human form no tattoos, no piercing angelic eyes and I actually think that ending would have been better, in my opinion.

00:19:18.846 --> 00:19:26.574
Well, technically it's still the ending, it's just that they didn't have it in the Australian season, like when it came out in Australia.

00:19:26.574 --> 00:19:33.067
They didn't have it in the Australian one for some reason, I don't know why, because it would have made a lot more sense.

00:19:33.067 --> 00:19:48.574
Because he's deciding to stay in purgatory so he can continue to do good and help people and therefore trying to break that cycle of having a war happen in the streets all the time.

00:19:48.574 --> 00:19:49.376
Perpetuate, yeah, yeah.

00:19:51.142 --> 00:20:01.044
I also think this might tip into my MVT a little bit, but I also think that he was the way I sort of made sense of his sacrifice at the end, without the end credit scene.

00:20:01.044 --> 00:20:05.048
Where he came back was he was fearful of the darkness that lay within him.

00:20:05.730 --> 00:20:05.932
Yeah.

00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:25.073
So him seeing that he was susceptible to that fall and basically eliminating himself from the equation, being like I don't want, because if I stay here and I succumb and I fall, then that's bringing darkness back into this realm that is now already light and ruining basically all the sacrifice that had occurred to make it happen this way.

00:20:25.280 --> 00:20:44.308
The fact that they don't have that end credits is what makes that confusing, because him killing himself, yes, he wouldn't go back to the light and he would just destroy his body and his soul forever, but then that wouldn't accomplish anything in the long run, because then an award would just happen with him there.

00:20:44.308 --> 00:21:00.489
If they were to send anyone else out, he could potentially guide them, help them and continue to have the lights win, because he's been through it all, he's done it all and now he's just there to help and he remembers it all.

00:21:01.140 --> 00:21:05.059
See, that would have been good too, because then he would act as that mentor character.

00:21:05.059 --> 00:21:11.240
And Shane Abus actually talked about this being a franchisable movie where there could be two extra sequels.

00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:26.951
So if any other angels came down in different forms and different human bodies, the ones that had been previously killed, because that battle would continue, then Gabriel would be there to say help Raphael in his new body or Uriel in his new body to become the new bringer of light.

00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:29.086
Unfortunately, they wouldn't be able to because they're dead.

00:21:29.086 --> 00:21:30.230
I thought that they could.

00:21:30.230 --> 00:21:39.912
No, so if an angel is is is to die in purgatory, their souls are sent to the void to be endlessly destroyed.

00:21:39.912 --> 00:21:44.070
So it would be one of the other countless fucking angels that they've got, and one of the other countless demons.

00:21:44.090 --> 00:21:52.171
Yeah, so does that mean the end, like the end credit scene with gay, with Gabriel, if he was to die after he fell off that building?

00:21:52.171 --> 00:21:58.782
Maybe that's why they took out the end credits scene, because it didn't make sense to the law that they had continuing To start with.

00:21:58.782 --> 00:22:00.509
He shouldn't have been able to come back in that manner.

00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:05.368
That's more a symbol like of him falling from grace and losing his wings.

00:22:05.650 --> 00:22:07.594
Same way that Jade did Same way Jade did.

00:22:07.594 --> 00:22:13.220
That was a symbolic fall from grace, as opposed to he literally hurled himself over a building Become fully mortal.

00:22:13.220 --> 00:22:19.173
See these sorts of things I really feel like and wish would have been explained a little bit better through the climax.

00:22:19.173 --> 00:22:22.684
Because on the face of it it really just looked like.

00:22:23.346 --> 00:22:24.650
Michael and Samuel were fighting.

00:22:25.172 --> 00:22:25.553
Gabriel.

00:22:26.060 --> 00:22:27.246
He heals him just to jump off the building.

00:22:27.420 --> 00:22:29.888
He heals him, just to then have him throw himself off the building.

00:22:29.888 --> 00:22:36.916
I think that realization that happens between Gabriel really needs to be a little bit more developed for us as audience members to get it.

00:22:37.280 --> 00:22:47.711
Yeah, just that scene of him walking back through that door as a mortal, it would be in enough context for most people to get oh, he fell from grace to become mortal, boom, that's the end.

00:22:47.711 --> 00:22:55.001
Oh shit, there's going to be more no-transcript, because if demons come up because he's now immortal, they won't know that he was an angel that he can be under like.

00:22:55.262 --> 00:22:59.144
If a demon that would bring a whole new challenge and a whole different sort of tension.

00:22:59.144 --> 00:23:03.703
Point to the movie where he's trying to fight these fallen and he's depowered.

00:23:04.165 --> 00:23:15.709
Yeah, that would be, yeah but the thing is he can stay straight to the angel like where he can try and find that angel, because they come down like shooting but duh.

00:23:15.709 --> 00:23:18.229
So he just needs to keep looking out for that.

00:23:18.229 --> 00:23:24.511
But when they, like an angel, gets there, if he can get to that angel first, before the demons do, he can be like hey guy, remember me?

00:23:24.511 --> 00:23:25.339
I used to be Gabriel.

00:23:25.339 --> 00:23:28.442
Yep, let me show you how you can do to help out this city.

00:23:28.442 --> 00:23:39.891
Let's go yeah, and sort of be that sort of yeah, be that Nyagi Wax on wax off.

00:23:40.201 --> 00:23:44.525
I think the thing that confused me the most was when he was sort of throwing himself off the building.

00:23:44.525 --> 00:23:49.109
His line that he said was you threw me far from grace and now I fall onto it.

00:23:49.109 --> 00:23:56.290
So to me I really like I think we're right in terms of him falling is a symbolic gesture of him falling from grace.

00:23:56.290 --> 00:24:00.146
But that sentence that he says kind of implies that he's going back to grace.

00:24:00.146 --> 00:24:19.627
Which is why I kind of led to believe in my first iteration and reading of the film was that he was so negatively affected by his fall that or his almost fall, when he was fighting Asmodeus and being affected by the realm of purgatory, that he was fearful that it would happen again and he would bring evil back into this realm.

00:24:19.627 --> 00:24:24.652
So I think that that is a little bit muddy for me.

00:24:24.901 --> 00:24:35.789
Well, see, my interpretation of that line is you may fall far from grace, because heaven's about the highest form of grace, like it's meant to be, the wonderful, magical happy place it is.

00:24:35.789 --> 00:24:42.866
But I think when he says you may fall on grace, I think he's saying that purgatory itself.

00:24:43.428 --> 00:24:44.780
Ah, that is so much better.

00:24:44.780 --> 00:24:46.286
Yeah, bro, I get that.

00:24:46.286 --> 00:24:46.909
That's awesome.

00:24:46.909 --> 00:24:52.930
Yeah, because he was talking to Michael about all the amazing things that he felt in purgatory as well.

00:24:52.930 --> 00:24:54.993
Bad and good, bad and good.

00:24:55.401 --> 00:24:58.289
But that's just like that's a great line.

00:24:58.329 --> 00:25:17.290
Yeah, the fact that there's like so many different emotions, and that not just the one unhappy emotion or the I'm very angry emotion, it's like the amount of smells, feels, touch, tastes, love, love like anger, like all that just emotion, is just like the human experience.

00:25:17.290 --> 00:25:25.279
It like is the grace, the wonder and the grace of this place, and so now he's falling.

00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:30.567
That makes sense and that's why he comes out and he's human, so he can fully embrace that.

00:25:30.567 --> 00:25:31.781
Yeah, we need the end credit scene.

00:25:31.781 --> 00:25:34.891
Yeah, exactly Ties it all together.

00:25:34.891 --> 00:25:42.128
Like you can look at it that way and be like, oh yeah, I can see him used to falling, but because you don't see him alive at the end, you don't know.

00:25:42.128 --> 00:25:44.444
Is he falling to die or is he falling to?

00:25:44.464 --> 00:25:44.906
become human.

00:25:44.926 --> 00:25:53.060
Yeah well, that was me that.

00:25:53.060 --> 00:25:53.502
Just say as well.

00:25:53.502 --> 00:25:55.931
Just to put like just to finish off this conversation, this was made in 2007.

00:25:55.931 --> 00:25:57.455
Did they then initiate the end credit scene before marvel?

00:25:57.455 --> 00:25:58.779
Well, just, iron man was 2008.

00:26:01.846 --> 00:26:14.714
I honestly think that, um, the character of gabriel is probably one of the best parts of this movie, uh, in terms of his, his character arc, andy whitfield portraying him in the way that he acts.

00:26:14.714 --> 00:26:35.223
I think he juxtaposes well with Dwayne Stevenson's Samael slash Michael, and for me, I think that now that I've sort of conceptualized that line you threw me far from grace and now I fall onto it I think that that end credit scene would have really tied it all together and made that climax a little bit more fulfilling for me.

00:26:35.223 --> 00:26:36.747
So, yeah, that was.

00:26:36.747 --> 00:26:38.711
That was a really, really good point, brash, I like that.

00:26:38.711 --> 00:26:41.869
All right, let's go to our real deal segment.

00:26:41.869 --> 00:26:57.311
In our real deal segment, we randomly select a criteria or lens to view the media through and discuss elements with the intention of finding out whether it can be rated positively or negatively.

00:26:57.311 --> 00:27:06.310
Each week, we name these positive and negative criteria in something that will reflect a fun element of the movie that we have been looking at.

00:27:06.310 --> 00:27:09.366
So if something is good this week, prash, we're going to call it.

00:27:10.410 --> 00:27:11.332
Say again Arcs.

00:27:11.332 --> 00:27:13.203
Actually, that's better than what I got.

00:27:13.203 --> 00:27:14.795
You're on fire today, prash, we're going to call it Arcs, zegan, arcs Actually that's better than what I got.

00:27:14.761 --> 00:27:15.204
You're on fire today.

00:27:15.173 --> 00:27:15.313
Brash.

00:27:15.313 --> 00:27:17.005
Oh, I was going to say arcs and fallen.

00:27:17.005 --> 00:27:18.368
Yes, that's it, we will do that.

00:27:18.368 --> 00:27:19.211
That is perfect.

00:27:19.211 --> 00:27:25.763
If it's good, we're going to call it arc, and if it's bad, we're going to call it fallen, which represents, obviously the angel's.

00:27:25.763 --> 00:27:28.746
I'll tell you what I had, where it's worse.

00:27:28.746 --> 00:27:33.250
No, no, don't now, don't now, so the good one I had was Accept the Dawn Bleed With Me, Brother.

00:27:33.250 --> 00:27:38.354
Ooh yeah, Pulls Michael slash Samuel onto the pipe.

00:27:38.453 --> 00:27:40.955
I actually that has probably been one of my favorite scenes.

00:27:41.415 --> 00:27:49.307
Yeah, I am taken out of that scene by the unrealistic nature of it, because it's not a sharp pipe, it's a.

00:27:49.307 --> 00:27:50.950
Anyway we digress.

00:27:50.950 --> 00:27:55.588
And then the one that I had for the bad rating was I love you, michael, but I hate what you've become.

00:27:55.588 --> 00:27:58.086
Which is both from the climax scene.

00:27:58.299 --> 00:27:58.480
Yeah.

00:27:58.601 --> 00:27:59.464
I love that too, actually.

00:27:59.464 --> 00:28:04.961
Yeah, so you like mine and I like yours, but I think we're going to go with the good rating being Ark, bad rating being Fallen.

00:28:04.961 --> 00:28:06.363
Just because it's simpler, better.

00:28:06.363 --> 00:28:10.406
So let's randomly generate our first real deal.

00:28:10.406 --> 00:28:14.310
All right, so the first one that's come up is the world building or the setting.

00:28:14.310 --> 00:28:31.948
So this movie takes place in purgatory, with the assumption we're kind of introduced to the idea that there is something above, because there is an extensively long digital effects scene of Gabriel making his way through a wormhole, doctor who style, until he eventually falls down into purgatory.

00:28:31.948 --> 00:28:34.733
What are your thoughts on purgatory, mr Brasher?

00:28:35.056 --> 00:28:40.843
I have a feeling that it's not right, but this is the way I interpret it because I think it would be more interesting.

00:28:40.843 --> 00:28:42.708
So they call it purgatory.

00:28:42.949 --> 00:28:43.830
I just think it's earth.

00:28:44.561 --> 00:28:52.442
I think that's how I interpreted it as well so, yeah, they call it purgatory, but so it's just where we live now.

00:28:52.442 --> 00:28:56.268
So purgatory, but it's just where we live now, so purgatory.

00:28:56.268 --> 00:29:14.713
And a lot of people also contribute purgatory to this as well, saying that purgatory is just our life, and how we live our life determines if we go to heaven or hell, and so I believe that purgatory he falls into is just here with us.

00:29:15.099 --> 00:29:22.128
I think that would make sense too, because he does talk about that human experience and all the different things that he's felt, good and bad, on this realm.

00:29:22.128 --> 00:29:28.763
It's obviously very much like Earth, if not a dystopian version, yeah, neo-noir version of it.

00:29:28.763 --> 00:29:35.948
New York City, new York City, yep, a city in the underbellies, basically Hell's Kitchen.

00:29:35.948 --> 00:29:37.766
Yeah, that would be perfect as well.

00:29:37.766 --> 00:29:47.226
So I think that, for me, I always, even though they call it Purgatory, I always saw it and imagined it as our planet, yeah, our existence here.

00:29:47.226 --> 00:29:51.721
Why do you think they chose to go with Purgatory instead of just Well?

00:29:52.144 --> 00:30:00.886
I think, because it gives it like, as you're saying, how they didn't want to go too far from like heaven, hell, angels demons, oh yeah, religious or theological.

00:30:01.160 --> 00:30:13.388
Because people can interpret it as earth if they want to, or they can interpret it as purgatory, where souls of like women who've died have, the ones that can't be quite judged yet because they haven't really lived a good or a bad life.

00:30:13.388 --> 00:30:14.891
They're sort of stuck in the middle.

00:30:14.891 --> 00:30:16.693
Well, done some good, done some bad.

00:30:16.693 --> 00:30:29.923
They go to purgatory, where then the demons and angels can poke and prod at them to see if they can get that soul, because souls must be some sort of currency that's something as well that isn't really explained.

00:30:29.982 --> 00:30:41.190
So that brings me to my point, I guess, about the world building in the setting is there are some really great ideas that has been presented in this realm, and I don't think that all of them have been fully fleshed out.

00:30:41.190 --> 00:30:50.612
I still have a lot of questions in terms of the rules for purgatory, um, the inhabitants that are there beyond the main conflict, because, as we saw, there are only like a sparse smattering of people.

00:30:50.612 --> 00:31:04.102
It looked like a wasteland and I think it would have given more depth to see a lot of the people that Gabriel was trying to save, for example, like he's come down to save all these people and we see about 10 of them in the movie that aren't part of the conflict, so to speak.

00:31:04.102 --> 00:31:13.731
I think that the good versus evil sort of trope in it is pretty simplistic as well, except when you're talking about the nuance of the grey, when we're talking about Michael slash Samael.

00:31:13.731 --> 00:31:18.642
But yeah, I think the rules of Purgatory really needed developing as well, or more time to cook.

00:31:19.144 --> 00:31:21.144
Yeah, well, that's again how I said.

00:31:21.445 --> 00:31:25.204
This would be a really good TV series because you'd have that time to be able to flesh things out.

00:31:25.204 --> 00:31:34.843
You could spend a full almost hour long on each character that he goes and sees, instead of spending like 15 minutes with uriel.

00:31:34.843 --> 00:31:37.750
He could have had like a whole one, two episodes with him where he let it flash out.

00:31:37.750 --> 00:31:44.502
Or there could be times where, instead of like they meet rafael, he heals rafael, rafael still a bit wounded, and then dies immediately.

00:31:44.502 --> 00:31:50.505
It's like like he could have, like um, joined him in a fight or something like that later on but still got killed somehow.

00:31:50.505 --> 00:32:13.405
But because it wasn't that, because it was they were on such a tight budget, because they had to shorten it for movie constraints, like a lot of things had to get lost in it and they also had such a large sort of I won't say cast, but they had a lot of characters in terms of the arc and the fallen that they kind of had to develop and it really makes it hard for one or the other to shine like.

00:32:13.425 --> 00:32:23.491
The ones that stand out for me are obviously uriel, gabriel, samuel and and um, that's a, that's really it that we we get kind of developed and they have the most screen time.

00:32:23.491 --> 00:32:28.381
So, as you were saying before, in a longer form we probably have more time to sit with these characters.

00:32:28.381 --> 00:32:32.010
But in the way that it's sort of set right now, the character development really really does suffer.

00:32:32.010 --> 00:32:47.602
And considering this was a three-hour movie and they had to cut it down because Sony Distributing Company Australia wouldn't buy it unless it was a two-and-a-bit-hour movie, yeah, or just, you know, under two-hour movie, for marketable reasons For me.

00:32:47.622 --> 00:32:48.664
they missed out on so much.

00:32:48.664 --> 00:32:51.815
Like Lilith she's meant to be like the queen of monsters.

00:32:52.256 --> 00:33:13.574
Yeah, like all of that lore that we're talking about there when we were talking about Asmodeus being like the king of lust and sexual desire and all that sort of unbridled passion, and then Lilith being the queen of the damned, all that sort of lore that sits behind all of these very sort of famous and and heavy lore-built characters could have been really explored in a really deep and meaningful way.

00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:38.741
Like I would have loved, because Lilith uses a fucking sniper rifle to kill Uriel from a distance when she's meant to be like the queen of, like monsters, like she could have some, like she could use like a few like big-ass fucking ugly vicious dogs or some shit, and command those dogs or other creatures, even wolves or something like that or some something else to like, because he's outside.

00:33:38.741 --> 00:33:46.143
It could have been like creatures or animals and shit that she could command her to kill him because that's what she, that's her thing like.

00:33:46.143 --> 00:33:46.343
Now.

00:33:46.343 --> 00:33:53.669
That's what I feel like none of the characters really got to show off their their thing, and I agree with you there, except for Asmodeus

00:33:54.361 --> 00:33:58.291
who's probably the only one who got to show off a bit of what he is about.

00:33:58.291 --> 00:33:59.644
Which is he's all about?

00:33:59.683 --> 00:34:00.406
In the fun house.

00:34:00.788 --> 00:34:05.891
Loves himself, so he's trying to create a sort of mirror image of himself.

00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:08.447
Even that was a little bit muddy for me too.

00:34:08.659 --> 00:34:16.257
Well, yeah, because you didn't know about it unless, yeah, sort of I didn't know about it until I sort of read up on his characters.

00:34:16.438 --> 00:34:20.027
Yeah, and you miss a lot of that stuff.

00:34:20.027 --> 00:34:28.702
And like what Balin or Moloch it was, it was like pestilence and disease and that like you see him because he looked like a white ghoul.

00:34:28.702 --> 00:34:34.175
But he looked like a white ghoul, but you don't get to see anything like that.

00:34:34.175 --> 00:34:41.344
I would have liked it if he had bugs and shit rolling all over him or something like that, because, realistically, the demon characters, they didn't have to hide shit.

00:34:41.344 --> 00:34:44.268
They could use their powers as much as they want because they were winning.

00:34:44.268 --> 00:34:49.907
They didn't have any fear of getting killed by other angels because they'd already demoralized all of them.

00:34:49.907 --> 00:34:52.146
And yeah, I really got to.

00:34:52.146 --> 00:34:55.965
Yeah, show off their for their stuff, show their stuff.

00:34:56.206 --> 00:34:57.269
I agree, I think that they're.

00:34:57.269 --> 00:35:04.905
That's what we mean when we say there's so much potential in this world building setting and there's so much law behind the characters that you can really kind of dive into.

00:35:04.905 --> 00:35:14.719
But we really don't get to see that in this, in this movie, and I wouldn't say that it's rushed, because I feel like the pacing in this movie is a little bit here and there as well.

00:35:14.739 --> 00:35:17.809
Pacing in this movie is probably one thing that I hate the most.

00:35:18.291 --> 00:35:39.784
Yeah, and I think that with that in mind, we just don't get enough on what the characters are all about to really care about, because we know that some are fallen and some are arc, but beyond that there's really nothing of depth and I think that they could have benefited from a little bit and maybe that means, you know, only having one or two arcs and one or two fallen that we can get a bit more in depth with.

00:35:39.784 --> 00:35:50.452
But for the, for the story of Gabriel, I think that they ambitiously tried to do too much, left too much to assumption and it didn't really sit.

00:35:50.452 --> 00:35:55.367
Let's talk about the, the light and dark based sort of powers and the way that Purgatory reacts.

00:35:55.367 --> 00:36:04.889
I guess you could say to those light and dark based powers Because I know they were I really like the element that the Ark get weaker the longer they're in Purgatory.

00:36:04.889 --> 00:36:06.032
I like that.

00:36:06.032 --> 00:36:08.206
Is that the same for the Fallen?

00:36:08.547 --> 00:36:08.829
Well, no.

00:36:08.829 --> 00:36:11.268
So it is said in the movie.

00:36:11.268 --> 00:36:15.250
So whoever's winning winning, their powers grow.

00:36:15.250 --> 00:36:17.771
Whoever's losing, their powers weakened.

00:36:17.771 --> 00:36:25.992
So if the archangels were actually winning, they'd be able to have more power and the um, the fallen would lose their powers.

00:36:25.992 --> 00:36:42.382
But because we are human and we are easily corruptible, it's really hard for the angels to stay on top, and then that's why it's so easy for the fallen to win and overcome and demoralize and crush the arts.

00:36:42.403 --> 00:36:53.170
And that's literally why Michael slash Samuel sort of fell, because he thought that as hard of the, as much effort as he put into saving humans, their own folly is themselves.

00:36:53.922 --> 00:37:03.367
And this goes into what you were saying with pacing Like how long do you think Gabriel was in purgatory before the end of the spring when he got there to where he ends?

00:37:03.367 --> 00:37:04.990
I would say a day.

00:37:04.990 --> 00:37:06.072
Weeks.

00:37:06.072 --> 00:37:09.150
He was there for weeks but it felt like a day.

00:37:09.150 --> 00:37:24.530
It felt like one long-ass day because it didn't really show the times he was having breaks and shit, but because of the pacing it didn't really show that and it didn't do the whole thing where it was like three days later or something like that because that'd be stupid.

00:37:24.771 --> 00:37:44.242
I can look stupid if they tried doing it that way, but he was there for an extended period of time because, you see, when he was, he was there for an extended period of time because, you, you see, um, when he was talking about the character, he's like, oh, we talked to asmodeus, but he's like, oh, he's like oh, how, um, he's like how long you been here a week two, probably, being here for three years or whatever it was.

00:37:44.242 --> 00:37:48.201
And that's really like I'll speak up, and it's like he didn't say like a day or like a day or two.

00:37:48.201 --> 00:37:49.744
He'd be like a day.

00:37:49.744 --> 00:37:50.226
He's like what?

00:37:50.246 --> 00:38:03.170
you here a week, a month or whatever it is yeah, I think more context would have been given to those parts if we were actually seeing the three hour cut, because you know we get more about how Gabriel learns to be a human and that would have taken him a little bit of time.

00:38:03.170 --> 00:38:12.027
You know eating for the first time you see him standing and those first scenes where you see him coming down on earth after he lands in the wormhole, uh, you actually see him attempting to talk.

00:38:12.027 --> 00:38:14.389
That's what he's actually doing in that moment.

00:38:14.389 --> 00:38:24.985
So, yeah, I think that could have been more well explained if they uh that they either needed to use their runtime a little bit more effectively or make it into a different sort of feature instead of a film.

00:38:25.186 --> 00:38:26.369
Anyway, let's let's rate this.

00:38:26.369 --> 00:38:29.385
Is it going to be good as in arc or bad as in fallen?

00:38:29.385 --> 00:38:31.449
What do you think for the world building slash slash setting?

00:38:31.449 --> 00:38:39.447
I might go first, because this is kind of tricky for me, because I think there is a lot of potential, a lot of good ideas, execution not so much.

00:38:39.447 --> 00:38:45.791
So I think for me I'm going to give it a fallen, with a shiny Gabriel falling off the top of the building arc as a little caveat.

00:38:45.791 --> 00:38:52.230
That's what I'll give it, but definitely a lot of fallen with a little spark of light for the potential that the idea holds.

00:38:52.550 --> 00:38:56.907
I'm going to give it an arc, but for the opposite view.

00:38:56.907 --> 00:39:03.726
I'm going to give it the arc because of the idea and the potential, but I'm going to give it a code of I just got all my friends killed.

00:39:07.422 --> 00:39:08.186
Going a bit Fallen.

00:39:09.483 --> 00:39:22.235
Going that little bit Fallen because of the execution of it, Because, to be honest, this could have been so good given A more funding.

00:39:22.896 --> 00:39:24.880
B, more time, all right.

00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.614
So let's get our next one for real deal, all right.

00:39:27.614 --> 00:39:28.804
This one has come up as the pacing.

00:39:28.804 --> 00:39:33.016
We kind of talked about this a little bit earlier in our world building setting.

00:39:33.016 --> 00:39:39.820
I'll come straight out and say that this is an arc for me, 100% yeah, especially, you know, the first act for me is a little bit slow.

00:39:39.820 --> 00:39:50.090
Us learning what we do need to learn about Gabriel coming down and that pre-lore about the Fallen, and the arc comes as sort of screen text and then it really doesn't.

00:39:50.090 --> 00:40:00.134
It really didn't sort of pick up and peak for me until he started talking to Uriel, and that conversation there gave me more lore and information than that whole part beforehand.

00:40:00.134 --> 00:40:04.311
So I reckon they should have sort of foregrounded that they should have just fallen.

00:40:05.826 --> 00:40:06.429
I even reckon the.

00:40:06.664 --> 00:40:07.628
And Uriel could have just found him.

00:40:08.030 --> 00:40:13.909

Gabriel (2007) - Part Two: The Untapped Potential of Purgatory and the Powerful Character Arcs of Gabriel and Michael.

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Gabriel (2007): When Angels Fall - Redemption in a Neo-Noir Purgatory