April 10, 2025

Fantastic Four (2005) Part Two - What Ben Grimm's "The Thing" and Marvel's First Family Teaches Us About Accepting Change

Episode Summary:

The Fantastic Four (2005) film shows how gaining superpowers forces its characters to confront deep personal struggles with identity, acceptance, and responsibility. Cosmic radiation transformed four astronauts physically, but their greatest challenge wasn't Doctor Doom – it was accepting who they'd become.

Topics:

When we dive into the 2005 Fantastic Four film in our Marvel Month celebration, we're really exploring how these four characters navigate profound identity shifts after gaining their powers. The movie may be over fifteen years old, but its core message about self-acceptance resonates deeply with anyone who's experienced unwanted change.

Michael Chiklis's portrayal of Ben Grimm/The Thing serves as the emotional anchor, with his tragic struggle to accept his rocky exterior reflecting our universal fear of rejection. His character arc – from desperately seeking a cure to embracing his new form – mirrors our own journeys through acceptance.

Meanwhile, Ioan Gruffudd's Reed Richards wrestles with his scientific ambition versus his responsibility to others, Chris Evans brings charismatic energy as Johnny Storm (years before becoming Captain America), and Jessica Alba navigates Sue Storm's role as the team's emotional center despite the script's limitations.

Beyond dissecting performances, we explore how each character's power symbolizes their internal struggles: Reed stretching himself too thin, Sue feeling invisible, Johnny's fiery impulsiveness, and Ben's hardened exterior. These aren't just cool abilities – they're metaphors for human experience.

Key Takeaways:

• Ioan Gruffudd brings Reed Richards' intellectual gravitas to life despite being constantly torn between scientific pursuit and personal relationships
• Chris Evans's Johnny Storm captures the character's rebellious energy, improvisational wit, and thrill-seeking attitude as the Human Torch
• Jessica Alba portrays Sue Storm as the emotional anchor of the team despite the script's over-reliance on objectification
• Michael Chiklis delivers a standout performance as Ben Grimm/The Thing, bringing genuine pathos to his traumatic physical transformation
• The movie successfully establishes the family dynamic and interpersonal relationships that define the Fantastic Four
• Ben Grimm's journey toward self-acceptance provides the emotional core of the film

Apple Podcast Tags:

Fantastic Four 2005, Jessica Alba, Chris Evans, Ioan Gruffudd, Michael Chiklis, Marvel movies, superhero films, comic book adaptations, Sue Storm, Johnny Storm, The Thing, Mr Fantastic, Doctor Doom, Marvel Month, Fandom Portals Podcast

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Threads: threads.net/@fandomportals
Email: fandomportals@gmail.com
Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/fandomportals

00:15 - Introduction to Fandom Portals

02:08 - Fantastic Four Movie Overview

03:47 - The Marvel Month Giveaway

06:10 - Reed Richards Character Analysis

14:15 - Johnny Storm Character Analysis

22:56 - Sue Storm Character Analysis

31:19 - Ben Grimm/The Thing Analysis

42:09 - Inner Struggle for Acceptance

48:00 - Movie Rating and Final Thoughts

WEBVTT

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Hello and welcome to the Fandom Portals podcast.

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This is a podcast that explores how fandoms can help you learn and grow.

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We are looking at the Fantastic Four movie from 2005.

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It was fantastic.

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Um, I'm here joined by my co-host, brash.

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How you going today, brash?

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oh, not too bad.

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I was going to try and come up with more catchphrases for fantasy four, but I realized it's flame one and it's covering time of the only two real catchphrases that have, because I don't believe that reed richards no, they are.

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They're very serious.

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Um, unless you know, a catchphrase could be sue storm, telling reed to pull his head out of his work.

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And Reed could be saying one more minute.

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Darling, I don't know.

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But yes, we are looking at the 2005 Fantastic Four movie that was directed by Tim Story, and in this movie a group of astronauts gain superpowers after a cosmic radiation exposure and they must use those powers to oppose the plans of their enemy, dr Victor Von Doom.

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This is the second part of our fantastic for 2005 podcast, so make sure you go and check out part one if you haven't already.

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And this is also part of our marvel month.

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All month long we're going to be looking at marvel material and we also have a giveaway going on as well.

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So during the month of marvel, brash and I have teamed up to try and gain 15 points from our trivia segment, which usually happens in in our part ones.

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And if you want to win a family pass to the movies, that's right, we'll send you to the movies on us.

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Then all you have to do is go and join our mailing list, which you can find at wwwbandandportalspodcastcom.

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If you go to that website, you can find where you will sign up to our mailing list and if you win, on the 30th of April we'll email you a family pass for you to enjoy a movie on us, because we love the theatre, we love movies and we like going to the movies, so we wanted to extend that to you guys as well, didn't we, brash?

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Oh yeah, please enjoy it on us.

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That's how we do it, oh yeah, okay.

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So in this podcast, guys, in this part two, we're going to be looking at how they performed their chemistry and what we hope for Fantastic Four first steps as well, and we're going to dive into our popcorn perspectives right now.

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Alright, in this segment, we dive into standout characters from the movie.

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Each host picks their favourite character and takes a close look at why they thought the character should be given your attention.

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All right, brash, the way this is going to work is we're going to pick a character, we're going to talk about them and how they were portrayed through the 2005 movie, what our hopes are for the Fantastic Four first steps, and then we're going to rate their performance and their representation out of five.

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Make sense, lovely, all right.

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The first character that we're going to be doing is we're going to be doing the man himself, mr Fantastic Reed Richards, played by Johan Griffith.

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What did you think of his performance, brash?

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Almost perfect, I would have to say.

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I thought he played the nerdy work-driven Reed Richards to a T, like he was.

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When it first came out and I saw him on screen I was like, hey, it's Reed Richards, that's Mr Fantastic right there, miles Teller.

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I love Miles Teller.

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But when he came in I was like, hey, who's that guy?

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Oh, oh, he was A bigger than Ben Green, yeah, and it was a nice casting.

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But 2005 casting was on point, I reckon, and Reed Richards, for me, was absolutely brilliant and he pulled off the silver fox grey hairline.

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I think it was interesting to know that Yohan Griffith is a Welsh actor and he had to try and put on the American accent through the movie.

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I think he did a pretty good job.

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There are some points where you can tell yeah, he did struggle.

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Yeah, because he kept getting new lines constantly.

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He had to keep reloading new lines, trying to read those new lines in an American accent constantly.

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Yeah, it messed him up a little bit.

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But yeah, I think that Johan tried to aim for that intellectual gravitas that Reed Richards has, which I think he did kind of well.

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But some people have said that his performance was a little bit too subdued, because you know, reed can often be seen at least in the comic books as being very cold and calculating and distant to his other Fantastic Four family members, and I don't think he was like that in this movie.

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He was actually pretty warm towards the other members of the Fantastic Four, or at least he presented that leadership kind of quality very, very well.

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He always seemed like he was reluctantly doing his work, which is actually the true form of the comic book's version of Reed Richards.

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He's actually always in that constant struggle.

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He's in a moral struggle all the time, with his intellectual ruthlessness of being absolutely driven and focused to try and make the world a better place, because he's the only one intellectually that can do it, and also his love for his family that needs his time, that, uh, that needs his care, that relationship with sue that needs nurturing as well.

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So he's always being pulled in so many different directions, which is actually why he got his powers of stretching um.

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So with that in mind, I think that, uh, griffith actually played this pretty well, and I think that the only thing that we didn't really see and we kind of see it a little bit more in the rise of the silver surfer movie is where he's actually being pulled in two directions in terms of his relationship with sue and his scientific pursuits, because in this one, yes, he wants to cure ben so much that's like drawing all of his attention, but in this movie he doesn't really have a relationship with sue storm anymore.

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because, yeah, he's trying to recreate.

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So in trying to help ben he's working for to help ben, but then in the same vein he's also seeing that he's also slowly winning back sue.

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So he's sort of, yeah, doing that bit of Tywin War and this is one of the things I thought was a bit forced in the movie about that sort of dynamic for Reed was that in then going and taking that one afternoon off with Sue, victor was able to convince Ben.

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Yeah, he doesn't like you anymore, oh yeah, and that's that's why I, like it was wasn't able to convince Ben to.

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Yeah, he doesn't like you anymore.

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Oh, yeah, and that's why I was a bit forced on Reed, whereas, as you said, in the second movie it's a lot more natural because there's a big disaster coming.

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But it's also his wedding and he's like no, I'm going to get married Under the table, which is exactly Reed Richards through the comic book run, he's always doing the thing that needs to be done at the expense of his family, and that also, yeah, sort of brings which I don't think, uh, griffith sort of portrayed as well as he could have, was the, that existential loneliness that that kind of causes for reed, like in the.

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In the comic books, especially the hickman run between 2009, 2015, reed riches is portrayed as somebody who is going through this internal struggle, not only having all of these cosmic burdens on his hands and trying to maintain a family dynamic where he needs closeness, but also the fact that he is the only one that is fighting these battles.

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He's there with his family, but it's almost like he's fighting them alone because there's nobody else that's really on his level that he can use as an ally to help him in the manner that needs being helped.

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He does portray the, the brain, in this.

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He's definitely the scientific minded and he's he's also in terms of his friendship with ben.

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I don't think that is as developed as it could have been because, as you said before, you know it, it turns on a switch so quickly.

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They do have a history that we see about through their early interactions in the 2005 movie, but I don't think it's as in-depth as the Ben Grimm, reed Richards in the comic books, because obviously they have more time to develop that too.

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So let's give this guy a rating.

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Let's give him a rating out of five for Ewan Griffith and his portrayal of Reed Richards in the 2005 Fantastic Four movie.

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What are you giving it out of five?

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Brash, I was going to say three, oh, three and a half.

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I think that that is very complimentary to his portrayal and also its comic book accurateness with the story and the time that we were given in this almost two-hour movie.

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It was a pretty good read yeah, because it's hard to do anything within it was just the constraint of like two hours and especially building four main characters, main good characters and also a bad guy character and especially a significant one like Doctor Doom.

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Trying to build those five characters into our movie.

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Yeah, and I think you know they they did do an okay job at developing these characters, but it was to the detriment of any kind of plot.

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All right, let's move on to our next character, who is going to be Johnny Storm the Human Torch, played by Chris Evans.

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I'll go first for this one.

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When Chris Evans came on the screen as Johnny Storm the Human Torch, I absolutely loved him as a teenager.

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He was a guy I wanted to be.

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He played the hotshot shot persona and he was immediately likable.

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He was a showboat.

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He showed this youthful arrogance and thrill-seeking attitude.

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He embodied the flame that he would eventually then go and take on as well.

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And, funnily enough, chris evans actually improvised a lot of his lines, because tim's story thought that, uh, chris evans had the acting chops to do it for one and for two.

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He never felt like Johnny's lines should be something that was planned, because he was always the one that kind of played things by the seat of his pants anyway.

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So Chris Evans, even at that early time in his career, was able to pull off this role very, very well.

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I think that in terms of his match with the comic books, chris Evans played that wit and that rebellious kind of attitude and that thirst for the thrill.

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Really well, because he in the comic books is also one of the four and the only one of the four who doesn't really care that he has changed.

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It's almost like he loves the fact that these new powers give him this extra bit of attention and this new ability that he can use, and it's a really, really good portrayal of Johnny Storm.

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He lights up the screen, he sells the fun.

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I really liked Chris Evans as Johnny Storm.

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What are your thoughts, brash?

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I really liked him in the 2005 movie.

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I have to say, though he was a little bit annoying, but not to say though he was a little bit annoying, but not to say that that's a bad thing.

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I feel the fact that he annoyed me was probably on point for Johnny Storm.

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He annoyed me like he annoyed Ben Grimm.

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I can see that those two's chemistry as well.

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Ben Grimm, michael Chiklis and Chris Evans as the Human Torch that pranks the sort of dynamic as they were waiting inside to be cured.

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That's like the best montage that they could have done in this Fantastic Four.

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It built relationship and character development so quickly and it made us like both of them really well.

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It's also very comic accurate.

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I shared a post on our threads today that shows Ben Grimm throwing this massive water bomb onto Johnny Storm and it's just like it gives that energy.

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And that's what I kind of wish they sort of did as well.

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Like, to me it just seemed like Johnny I think the thing that I can know most about Johnny Storm in the Desperate Five movie, and I think it's because of the fact that they didn't have enough time to foster the relationships.

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It just really felt like like at the start it was a bit it was playful, but then towards the like sort of middle of the movie, ish, it just started to feel mean.

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His attacks on the thing wasn't like that.

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He's like oh, and what do you call this thing?

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He's like oh, that's the guy who did the thing.

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Everyone needs a mask he's a go on for a lot man come on, yeah, dude, and like and like.

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So I think for me he came off like he's got that at the very start.

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He's really good, the cockiness and everything that is really good.

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The dead evils like him diving, like him saying that the nurse is gonna be his future wife, jumping out of the helicopter, and he lied so on, point, so great.

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Him kissing the girl in the car, uh, while he's on the motorbike, real tom cruise stop gun sort of style.

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Like, um, oh yeah, I loved all that and then.

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But then when they got the powers in that he was still okay.

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But then as he kept griping on and on and on and on with ben grim's character, or ben grim the character, the thing it just sort of was like I thought got old and just started feeling just mean for mean sake, like the, like the whipped cream, that was funny.

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Like that little like, like that sort of playfulness was funny where you had to like we're trying to tickle with the feathers and realize he was a rock and that that wasn't gonna work.

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So you end up using the other side of it to tickle his nose, like the harder stick part of it, um, to get him to do the.

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Uh, slap his face with the whipped cream.

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That was great, but I but I wish it was a bit more back and forward, like the post you put on where Ben dropped the giant water balloon on Johnny Storm.

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I wish Ben he's not even a person, he's a thing.

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I get that in the comics, but in the movie it just seems so me.

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I think that that's part of the growth that we don't see in this movie from Johnny Storm as well, because he stays the same way the whole movie.

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He's always that joker, whereas in the comic books you can always sort of see that he's wrestling with this, wanting to grow and wanting to be a protector and wanting to be a hero, which we do see in this movie, but it doesn't really translate to responsibility very much.

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So until the Silver surfer movie.

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Yeah, the second one.

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The second one is silver surfer is where he actually, I actually like johnny storm more because that's when he like, yes, when he becomes the screw-up, when he becomes the um problem and he's like, oh, I need to um, it's a humbling moment for him which he doesn't get in this movie because he has the coolest power.

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His life doesn't change very much and everybody loves him.

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He doesn't look very different at all and you know what?

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He's got this energy about him and he's got that sort of arrogant persona.

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But in the comic books it shows that that's actually hiding a deeper struggle with self-image insecurity that he has.

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Like he needs external validation because he's so unsure of himself and his position in the team On multiple accounts.

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He is unable to find a place within the family of the Fantastic Four because they're all so connected and they all know their purpose and their place and he wants to be the heroes but he's always seen as this kid, this kid that can't get anything right, or this kid that is a hothead, or this thrill seeker that just goes out and does things for fun.

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And that's the Johnny Storm we got in this movie which I think is good comic book accuracy for the start of his journey as the Human Torch, because that's literally what it was From issue one to three of the original Fantastic Four.

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Johnny Storm was out for the thrill the whole time.

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The original Fantastic Four Johnny Storm was out for the thrill the whole time.

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He was there just doing rebellious teenage stuff.

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And then it wasn't until the later runs.

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It took until 2003,.

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And we're talking the Fantastic Four came out in 1961.

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In 2003, he started to then develop into something a little bit more.

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So the fact that we got it in the second movie is pretty good, but in this movie I do agree.

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I think that he was very immature the whole way through, and I think he did that because obviously he was the one that appealed to the teenage boy audience the most.

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But yeah, but yeah, so, but on a whole as Johnny Storm.

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What do you rate it?

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Do you think I'll give you mine first?

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I reckon it's a 4.5 out of 5.

00:15:00.167 --> 00:15:05.413
Actually, actually I'll give it a 4 out of 5 because, yeah, there is that little element that he doesn't really grow.

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He has no arc through this whole thing.

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But in the first movie, as you said, we're developing 5 characters.

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I think it was necessary to kind of portray him as that almost comic relief, you might say, in this movie.

00:15:17.544 --> 00:15:28.289
So 4 out of 5 for me yeah, I was going to give him a 3 out of 5, but I'm going to push it up to a 4 as well, noting that he was playing the Emotario character as well, the reason why he doesn't get that extra, like if he.

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If they had had that back and forth between him and Ben, I probably would have given it a 5 out of 5, but he just came off as like.

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I know he's immature and he's probably like his only insecurity is that's why he's picking on Ben, because Ben's an easy target to try and elevate himself by putting someone else down.

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But to me he was just so mean, so mean.

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But so there, chris Evans, amazing Johnny Storm.

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I just wish they had of not had him pick on Ben either so much or that made a bit more fun loving than straight up.

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Just me.

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All right, let's move on to Jessica Alba playing Sue Storm or the Invisible Woman in Fantastic Four 2005.

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All right.

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So I think in terms of the comic book representation of Sue Storm, this is the worst represented character.

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I do think that Jessica Alba portrayed Sue Storm in the movie as well as she could have.

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I think that Sue Storm should be the emotional compass and the moral strength of Marvel's first family.

00:16:36.664 --> 00:16:42.881
I think that she was basically heavily leaned on for objectification and the superficial look of her.

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Basically she was the drawcard for the target audience, you might say, and to the point where it is widely said that the titular scene where she turns herself invisible on the bridge, only for the male characters after her to just get through normally.

00:16:59.922 --> 00:17:04.846
So the pointless striptease you might say was in there just to you know objectify her even further.

00:17:04.846 --> 00:17:10.123
She had some uh things to say about that and that scene wasn't written in the movie until after she accepted the role.

00:17:10.123 --> 00:17:40.722
So with that, with sue storm's character being relegated to that kind of thing, was a big disappointment for me because, as as I said earlier, she is my favorite member of the Fantastic Four because she is this emotional rock for the team and it's epitomized most in Fantastic Four 280 to 284 when she actually becomes a dark persona malice because the boys in a Fantastic Four go without her for a time and it shows just how much emotional strength they take from her.

00:17:40.722 --> 00:17:48.457
She's able to reclaim herself in the end and then it shows that after that her strengths don't really lie in brute force or anything like that.

00:17:48.457 --> 00:17:56.989
It comes in her self-knowledge and her compassion and her control and that is what she then offers to the other members of the Fantastic Four.

00:17:56.989 --> 00:18:01.159
And she is also probably the most powerful member of the Fantastic Four.

00:18:01.159 --> 00:18:09.661
She has the shields that can not only shield everybody but she can create them within a person to stop oxygen or blood from leaving or going into the heart.

00:18:09.661 --> 00:18:23.403
She is an extremely powerful person in this Fantastic Four team and I think that Jessica Alba did the best that she could with the writing that she has done, but I think in terms of her comic book comparison this is an utterly woeful representation for me.

00:18:23.755 --> 00:18:36.346
I also think that it's always been explained that Sue got her powers of invisibility because Reed never sees her and I don't think that that's why she got her powers of invisibility in force field.

00:18:36.516 --> 00:18:42.161
I think that she got her powers of force field because she is the emotional protector of the entire team and her children when they do come along.

00:18:43.021 --> 00:18:53.674
And she has an empower of invisibility because a lot of the time she neglects her own needs for the needs of the team and in that way she, her needs, are invisible.

00:18:53.674 --> 00:19:14.801
So through that justification is how I like to see sue storm in the Fantastic Four and through this she was really only given like power and success through the man's kind of world of her being this scientific figure or the second in charge to Victor, but really because he then went and proposed to her.

00:19:14.801 --> 00:19:28.984
It was almost like she only got that promotion because Victor despite Reed, which means her entire character development was centered on the fact that Victor and Reed were feuding, which I didn't really enjoy with that.

00:19:28.984 --> 00:19:41.998
So I think Albert did a good job with what she was given and she was obviously a draw for the big teenage audience and she did what she needed to do in terms of the objectification and all that kind of stuff.

00:19:41.998 --> 00:19:46.260
But I just don't think that it kind of worked for me as a comic book adaptation.

00:19:46.260 --> 00:19:47.203
What about you?

00:19:47.536 --> 00:19:48.621
I 100% agree.

00:19:48.621 --> 00:19:58.241
But yeah, and I feel, if it wasn't so, this comes back to them forcing Victor to be the main bad guy in the first movie.

00:19:58.241 --> 00:20:06.121
They had to have some sort of anchor point for him to be upset with the team, but more so Reed.

00:20:06.121 --> 00:20:14.883
Unfortunately, Sue became that thing because her portrayal of Sue Storm I thought was extremely good.

00:20:14.883 --> 00:20:18.298
She is the one who's when Johnny's playing up goals.

00:20:18.298 --> 00:20:21.579
Johnny, when Ben's feeling down about himself, says you're alright, man, you're good, it's all good, weals Johnny.

00:20:21.579 --> 00:20:24.567
When Ben's feeling down about himself, he says you're all right, man, you're good, it's all good, we'll figure it out.

00:20:24.567 --> 00:20:26.069
Reed's got this, just trust him.

00:20:26.069 --> 00:20:26.530
Blah, blah.

00:20:26.530 --> 00:20:38.898
And then when Reed's working too hard or getting too focused on his work or getting too distracted by his work, able to pull him out and say hey, you need to refocus, just take a break, refocus.

00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:40.019
Rash.

00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:41.181
These are really good points.

00:20:41.181 --> 00:20:42.281
Man, these are good points.

00:20:42.782 --> 00:20:44.584
So I feel like Sue Storm.

00:20:44.584 --> 00:20:51.490
The character and the way Alba plays her is pretty spot on to Sue.

00:20:51.490 --> 00:21:17.877
The only thing is that it's overshadowed by the over-sexualization and the fact that she becomes the piece of meat that Victor and Reed fight over Yep, the over sexualization and the fact that she becomes the piece of meat that victor and reed fight over yep and um like and yes, that pointless, pointless strip scene which they did again in the second movie as well, like really early on they did it again, I know yeah, and she's like why does it always happen to me?

00:21:18.138 --> 00:21:21.130
and it's like because, jessica, you are extremely beautiful.

00:21:21.130 --> 00:21:22.515
But do that?

00:21:22.515 --> 00:21:25.242
That is why and that gets the teenage boys in.

00:21:25.242 --> 00:21:46.084
Yeah, but I I feel like, take away those stupid sexualization moments, make victor's arc fanned over two movies or three movies, instead of just trying to somehow make him hate them so much really quickly because of a girl, and that's the only way you can actually do it in that short span of time.

00:21:46.084 --> 00:21:52.266
Take away that part and you have a pretty spot on perfect glue that holds the Fantastic Four together.

00:21:52.266 --> 00:21:54.169
In Sue Storm, jessica Alba.

00:21:54.674 --> 00:22:04.859
Yeah, one thing I would have liked to see as well was a lot of the time in the comics Sue kind of leads the team because Reed's wrapped up in saving the world science like he does.

00:22:04.859 --> 00:22:10.592
So she takes a leadership role quite often, and I think that that's what they're going to do in the new Fantastic Four first steps.

00:22:10.592 --> 00:22:13.326
Maybe they're going to actually look at Sue as being more of a leadership figure.

00:22:13.326 --> 00:22:39.642
That being the case, I think that's the case because in the trailer you can see that, um, that Sue kind of leads these two individuals through the Baxter building as if she's the ceo of the future foundation company, which which reed sort of establishes, and he's more of the, the tv personality slash science guy basically that develops all the technology on the side, like she's the face of the company, and that that sort of strategic leadership, I think, of the team was kind of missing as well, for me as well.

00:22:39.642 --> 00:22:43.838
Like on an equal footing at least everybody else and again um.

00:22:43.939 --> 00:22:44.400
I believe it.

00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:57.361
She shows that more in the second movie as the one who's sort of like the um, like uh, starts calling some of the shots, yeah, and also negotiating with the surfer as well, like she's able to do that exactly, yeah, and she's.

00:22:57.461 --> 00:23:07.214
She's sort of more taking point and like, even when, um, they're trying to save that Ferris wheel, in the end Reed comes up with the idea to use Johnny's powers to weld it back together.

00:23:07.214 --> 00:23:19.434
But it's Sue, like when they're all starting to fall apart and Sue's like trying to hold this Ferris wheel out, she's the one that's like hey, guys, get together, what are you doing?

00:23:19.434 --> 00:23:22.942
Like I'm struggling here because I'm doing all the work.

00:23:22.942 --> 00:23:30.965
And then that's when I sort of like, because we're all sort of bickering and falling apart, and Sue's like like, guys, come on, guys, we need to do something.

00:23:30.965 --> 00:23:33.800
And everyone's sort of like all right, yeah, let's get into gear.

00:23:33.820 --> 00:23:37.767
And then that's when Reed's like yeah, they start to click the panic sets.

00:23:37.767 --> 00:23:40.890
But she's the one, yeah, she's the one that sort of snaps them into work mode.

00:23:40.890 --> 00:23:42.830
You might say yeah.

00:23:42.871 --> 00:23:46.583
So again, I reckon Jessica Allaway did a really good job.

00:23:46.583 --> 00:23:56.144
It was just unfortunate that they forced her to be also the eye candy and the piece of meat that the guys fight over yeah, alright.

00:23:56.184 --> 00:23:57.028
What do you rate her performance?

00:23:57.818 --> 00:23:58.756
I rate her performance.

00:23:58.756 --> 00:24:23.934
If it was purely just of what I see of Sue Storm and just blocking out all the sexualization, I reckon she'd be a 4, but because of all the sexualization that she was forced to do in it it sort of drags her down to like a 3.5 yeah, I'll probably give her a 4 because I think that the fact that she was able to do what she was able to do, but also knowing that they were using her character for that, is just a testament for Descalba as an actress.

00:24:24.316 --> 00:24:35.904
She was able to go through and actually lean into the aspects of the character that were positive in terms of Sue Storm and not let the negative that was happening throughout the movie detract from her performance in other aspects.

00:24:35.904 --> 00:24:53.957
So you really convinced me through this that there were aspects of it that I kind of looked at and didn't really appreciate, because I do with that thing that a lot of marvel fans do when they've read a lot of the comic books which I have I'm a big fan of the fantastic four comics where you're kind of looking at it going that's not what I know and that's not what I love, and it's like the expectation versus reality of it kind of drew me out of it.

00:24:53.957 --> 00:25:01.451
But when you're putting those points together and saying you know she actually does do these things within the movie is just on a shorter scale, because obviously that's what they have to do in a movie.

00:25:01.451 --> 00:25:03.455
You really, yeah, pointed them out to me.

00:25:03.477 --> 00:25:11.419
Well, brash, I'm going to change my thing about the four then, because I'm going to ignore all this sexualization and I'm just going to go, based off her performance, without those parts.

00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:11.823
Beauty.

00:25:11.823 --> 00:25:12.227
Alright.

00:25:12.227 --> 00:25:19.703
So with that, we're going to move on to Michael Chiklis, who plays Ben Grimm or the Thing in the 2005 Fantastic Four movie.

00:25:19.703 --> 00:25:37.141
First things first, we can't talk about Michael Chitlis without talking about his absolute commitment to this role through his tragic transformation of the thing, his emotional isolation, but also the actor's isolation in terms of he was the only one wearing prosthetics and the prosthetics took three or six hours to apply.

00:25:37.141 --> 00:25:40.362
It was extremely hot when they were shooting in various locations.

00:25:40.434 --> 00:25:48.021
However, they did have to do a Canada shootcouver and he said he was very comfortable there yeah, everyone else was cold and he was warm and that was that fight like the end fight scene.

00:25:48.041 --> 00:25:51.943
Yeah, that was the end fight scene and especially because a lot of them were like wet with all the water and things like that.

00:25:51.943 --> 00:25:53.957
But yeah, you know, he got his payoff in the end.

00:25:53.957 --> 00:26:03.411
But uh, michael chiklis a massive fan of the comic books he is he's definitely there to preserve the authenticness of Ben Grimm and the Thing.

00:26:03.411 --> 00:26:15.222
I think the main things that the Thing needs is he needs to be the kind-hearted caramel center of the team.

00:26:15.222 --> 00:26:19.295
He's like the big puppy dog that everyone sort of gathers around.

00:26:19.295 --> 00:26:23.739
He has the potential to explode, obviously in moments of anger when his people are being hurt, gathers around.

00:26:23.739 --> 00:26:25.164
He has the potential to explode, obviously in moments of anger when his people are being hurt and pushed around.

00:26:25.164 --> 00:26:39.765
But I feel like he also needs to be that gooey center that really unites and talks to people through their problems and is that supportive best friend or that emotional rock you might say to Reed Richards which I feel like he is, especially through their early breakup with Sue Storm.

00:26:39.765 --> 00:27:04.617
Michael Chiklis plays him as somebody who's still friends with Sue, understands why she left him, because that's obviously his best friend, reed's biggest fault, which he does not deny, and then you know, I think he is a character that goes through that emotional turmoil, that bitterness and that loneliness get to him, which is why he succumbs to Doom's offer to change him sooner, and it's why he also gets so frustrated with Reed and Sue after they take that one afternoon off.

00:27:04.617 --> 00:27:06.604
I think Checklist played that really really well as well.

00:27:06.604 --> 00:27:10.882
He has some critical receptions for this that I've looked up.

00:27:10.882 --> 00:27:20.564
Roger Ebert wrote that Checklist brought a sense of humanity to a man trapped in a rock suit and he elicits genuine sympathy in a film otherwise devoid of much character depth.

00:27:20.564 --> 00:27:26.223
Empire magazine also commented him or commended him rather, for playing the thing really well.

00:27:26.223 --> 00:27:31.761
They remarked that he anchors the film's emotionality, even while buried in latex layers.

00:27:31.761 --> 00:27:35.776
So he's his performance for me was was really good.

00:27:36.818 --> 00:27:49.837
Two things I wish they did in terms of his character development, which I don't know how they could have done, but it's comic book accurate and which is what I want to see in Fantastic Four First Steps is obviously his cultural identity is that he's a Jewish superhero, so I would have liked to see a little bit of that In First Steps.

00:27:49.837 --> 00:27:52.760
They've got Ebon Mas Bakarak, who is a Jewish actor, to play him.

00:27:52.760 --> 00:27:55.057
I'm not sure if they'll dive into that, but maybe there'll.

00:27:55.057 --> 00:28:00.902
And then also, the thing is a very or.

00:28:00.922 --> 00:28:05.506
Ben Grimm is a very prominent member of the Yancey Street gang in New York.

00:28:05.506 --> 00:28:06.567
He grew up with nothing.

00:28:06.567 --> 00:28:38.720
Basically in the comic books he was a street kid and he still has those ties to the community of New York no-transcript, so that, uh, chickless and the role of the thing ben grim would actually start to feel a little bit of acceptance for his new form.

00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:48.460
But the biggest thing that they had to get right for the thing is that he had to be the one that was playing the person who was the most emotionally devastated from this transformation, which I think he did very well.

00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:52.124
Yeah, oh yeah, because I thought I got shit on the whole entire movie.

00:28:52.124 --> 00:28:56.180
Oh yeah, I have to say Michael's probably the out of all of them.

00:28:56.180 --> 00:29:07.684
As much as I do love Jessica Alba's suit in the Underlayers, michael was probably the best performer in this whole entire movie and the one who probably took the most care in it.

00:29:09.538 --> 00:29:16.920
Like even adding scenes like on the bridge, when his ex-fiancee comes and leaves the ring and he goes to pick it up.

00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:22.363
It was his idea to actually struggle with picking it up, which was literally tear-jerking when you watch that.

00:29:22.634 --> 00:29:23.538
That is so hard.

00:29:24.375 --> 00:29:25.519
In front of everybody.

00:29:25.881 --> 00:29:36.740
And yeah, and like you just imagine the rest of the crowd just looking and just watching him try to pick up this ring and no one's like helping him, like it's just like.

00:29:36.760 --> 00:29:43.904
But I do like eventually, like when the police go to arrest him and everyone's like, and the fire pit is like hey guys, he's a hero, and everyone starts clapping at you for him.

00:29:43.904 --> 00:29:59.464
I didn't like that and when I first watched it I was like I'm like, ah, it's going to start turning around for him and people are going to because initially because that was their first sort of showing, um, in that, in that seat, that everyone cheering for me, for me.

00:29:59.464 --> 00:30:06.920
When I first saw it, I was like, oh cool, this is when people are going to start turning around and there's still, there's still going to be, some fear towards him.

00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:09.856
But this is where it's going to start turning around and it's going to be.

00:30:09.856 --> 00:30:14.903
Everyone's going to start accepting him gradually more now and then that's pretty much straight away forgotten.

00:30:14.903 --> 00:30:19.604
But everyone cheered him on the bridge and everyone goes back to hating him again straight after that.

00:30:19.604 --> 00:30:20.346
It's it's like ah.

00:30:20.627 --> 00:30:40.144
Yeah, I think that was important to do, though, because obviously Ben's arc through this whole thing was finding that self-acceptance, and I really liked, at the end, when he obviously succumbed to Doom's proposal to turn him early, because he was not comfortable with who he was in himself in his new form.

00:30:40.144 --> 00:30:41.376
Through this change and traumatic event that he'd gone through.

00:30:41.376 --> 00:30:41.910
He wasn't comfortable with who he was in himself in his new form.

00:30:41.910 --> 00:30:51.567
Through this change and traumatic event that he'd gone through, he wasn't comfortable with who he was because he had this strong attachment to who he was previously and he couldn't fathom, you know, being this new version of ben grim.

00:30:51.928 --> 00:31:22.868
But in the end, he decided to change himself back to the thing in order to help his friends, which was a really good character development moment where you got to actually see, hey, this is the thing, and the same way with the comics that you know is self-sacrificing, gives for his family and the Fantastic Four and actually, you know, puts other people first, which is what he kind of does, sometimes to the detriment of himself, but he is always the one that is being turned to for those moments of strength, whether it be physical or emotional.

00:31:22.868 --> 00:31:25.103
So I kind of like that his arc went in that way.

00:31:25.103 --> 00:31:35.380
And then by the end of the movie, when Reed isn't at the party on the boat and he's talking to Ben and he says you know, I could probably do this, that and the other to fix you up, and Ben actually says you know what?

00:31:35.380 --> 00:31:37.045
All good, I'm good as is.

00:31:37.045 --> 00:31:39.506
That's like the best culminating part for his arc.

00:31:39.526 --> 00:31:41.047
for me, because of that way they went.

00:31:41.047 --> 00:31:55.916
I think everyone cheering for him on the bridge sort of then makes that whole net, whole end arc of him self-sacrificing and turning on them then being like, no, I need to help my friends and you know I can do.

00:31:55.916 --> 00:31:59.805
That is how I was, um, and I'll do that for them.

00:31:59.805 --> 00:32:08.680
It sort of sort of takes a step, makes him, makes them take a step backwards, because all these people he's been on camera, he was being filmed, everyone's cheering for him.

00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:17.067
I kind of wish that they'd cheer for the others, but still looked at him with disdain because, realistically, he's the one that started that crash by standing in front of the truck to save that guy.

00:32:17.126 --> 00:32:17.989
That's just quietly.

00:32:18.789 --> 00:32:19.009
He did.

00:32:19.009 --> 00:32:20.190
He did the right thing by saving the guy.

00:32:20.190 --> 00:32:24.393
But in the meantime you saw a taxi fly over into a bunch of gas tanks and explode.

00:32:24.393 --> 00:32:27.807
The two inside the car is dead straight up.

00:32:27.807 --> 00:32:28.795
So many people died.

00:32:28.795 --> 00:32:34.890
So many people died in that crash and the explosions saving that one guy who wanted to kill himself.

00:32:34.890 --> 00:32:40.328
I mean honestly, I mean you know yeah, that's the bridge scene.

00:32:40.348 --> 00:32:44.902
That is like it's a great production scene because the amount of cgr the amount of work and all that.

00:32:44.902 --> 00:32:49.384
All the work was really great but unfortunately in the story the way that it was is just like it just made no sense.

00:32:49.384 --> 00:32:50.676
It was kind of like they needed to.

00:32:50.676 --> 00:32:57.337
They needed to let the fantastic four show their powers for the first time and that was the best they could come up with.

00:32:57.337 --> 00:33:03.189
That was, yeah, like they could have made doom come and zap some stuff or, you know, just a regular old car crash.

00:33:04.174 --> 00:33:04.375
That.

00:33:04.375 --> 00:33:14.299
Or even like, introduce a different bad guy to right there, to for them to be like, oh wait, we got powers now we can help in this situation.

00:33:14.299 --> 00:33:18.035
And then show that and still like everyone's like everyone.

00:33:18.035 --> 00:33:20.320
Be like oh man, that's so cool, you can stretch, oh man, that everyone's like everyone.

00:33:20.320 --> 00:33:21.683
Be like oh man, that's so cool, you can stretch, oh man, that's so cool.

00:33:21.683 --> 00:33:24.891
He turns into fire and flies around and shoots firewalls and then, oh cool, she can go invisible and make force fields and stuff.

00:33:24.891 --> 00:33:25.553
Oh, it's a rock.

00:33:25.553 --> 00:33:47.705
And they could still do that and that could still make that sort of separation between them and alienating Ben, because everyone's all fascinated with them, the other three and still has, because ben, which can help that sort of self-loathing grow, yeah, to the point where victor's proposal is actually more attractive than then.

00:33:48.146 --> 00:33:51.557
Hey, they went away for the night or for an afternoon, for a couple hours.

00:33:51.557 --> 00:34:03.027
They've forgotten about you and, realistically, the whole like the thing was ready and um reed was like it's ready, we just somehow need more power, that's.

00:34:03.027 --> 00:34:05.180
All they needed was more power to run it, and it would have worked.

00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:07.395
Yeah, the science was thin in this movie too, which I didn't like.

00:34:07.395 --> 00:34:13.458
For a fantastic four movie, I needed some techno babble like star trek to keep me yeah, keep it like.

00:34:13.739 --> 00:34:26.329
But like the thing, the whole thing was ready, but he just he wanted to make sure because I want to make sure that was and that that was another thing about reed him being so meticulous and it it driving him else nuts because he's being so meticulous.

00:34:26.329 --> 00:34:28.199
He just needed more power and it would have worked.

00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:38.239
But he was struggling that moment to try and find a source of power like that that could do it, because victor had to throw a fair chunk of his energy in there and he drew a lot of it out as well.

00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:42.344
But, um well, he gained a lot of it as well from the discharge.

00:34:42.344 --> 00:34:44.829
Yeah, he, in that afternoon he came back.

00:34:44.829 --> 00:34:47.092
He refreshed me like all right, guys, we need a lot of energy.

00:34:47.092 --> 00:34:51.563
Oh, we know, we have a supernova who could probably create a lot of energy.

00:34:51.563 --> 00:34:55.818
Why don't we use Johnny to power it up?

00:34:55.818 --> 00:34:57.541
Fair enough, power solved.

00:34:57.541 --> 00:34:59.063
But they're like, but he's.

00:34:59.063 --> 00:35:00.626
But there he comes sneaky.

00:35:00.626 --> 00:35:04.597
Julian mcmahon hey, they've gone out for the evening.

00:35:04.597 --> 00:35:06.461
They don't love you anymore.

00:35:06.461 --> 00:35:08.226
They think you're ugly and tedious too.

00:35:08.996 --> 00:35:19.918
Ha ha, they're never gonna fix you, even though the machine's pretty much done yeah, he knew he was getting quick, but yeah, I think that's another time where the, the writing lets down the, the character development.

00:35:19.918 --> 00:35:25.222
But in terms of the actor, in terms of the actor and the character, I think, yeah, I would rate him.

00:35:25.222 --> 00:35:26.481
I'd probably rate this guy a five.

00:35:26.481 --> 00:35:37.777
I think five out of five for me for Michael Chiklis and the thing, just because his commitment to the authenticity and also actually I'll probably give it a 4.5 because I don't think he was I'll give it a 4.5.

00:35:37.856 --> 00:35:46.382
It wasn't as sensitive, as I'd like the thing to be in terms of like how he was emotionally there for the rest of the Fantastic Four, I'd say.

00:35:46.382 --> 00:35:50.963
But you know he had just gone through a very traumatic event and at the moment he was very self-focused.

00:35:51.144 --> 00:35:58.157
I guess you could say yeah, well, within the span of like not very long, he got turned into a rock monster monster.

00:35:58.157 --> 00:36:19.155
His wife, who they like when they're talking about things like you know, like we're gonna be together forever, no matter what, and then she's like, nah, straight up, straight up, he, he went through enough that would break any normal person and, um, his resilience, I think is detrimental in that and what.

00:36:19.155 --> 00:36:32.125
What actually I liked so much about like him and because as much as johnny annoyed me about how mean he was to him, detrimental in that and what actually I liked so much about him, because as much as Johnny annoyed me about how mean he was to him his resilience in just brushing him off and everything like that and just crushing his car and throwing it around.

00:36:32.215 --> 00:36:34.835
Yeah, no, it was a good ball I liked that To me.

00:36:34.856 --> 00:36:44.206
You need to do more kind of that stuff where Johnny does stuff to either tease him or do stuff like that, so then he gets him back by just throwing his car.

00:36:44.206 --> 00:36:46.000
Also I agree 4.5.

00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:49.603
Very good, all right, so let's get into our most valuable takeaways.

00:36:49.603 --> 00:37:07.338
This is the mvt section, the most valuable takeaway, the heart and soul of this podcast, where we break down the one thing that hits hardest, stuck longest or taught us something new from what we just watched.

00:37:07.338 --> 00:37:16.237
It's our moment to spotlight the takeaway that made us think, feel or see things differently, whether it's a killer, a moral punch or a next level piece of movie craft.

00:37:16.237 --> 00:37:20.262
This is what we learned from Fantastic Four 2005.

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Do you want to go first, or me?

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You can go first because mine might tee off, okay.

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So my one is about Ben Grimm and it is about the inner struggle for acceptance.

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So my most valuable takeaway from this is sort of in answer to the question what do you do when something irreversible happens to you or a change happens to you and it changes how you see yourself or how the world sees you?

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And it's very, very hard and it happens to everybody.

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It's something that happens throughout everybody's life.

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And I think that for Ben it wasn't just about the fact that he changed and his looks changed, but his identity changed, like his self-worth changed.

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It was tied to his humanity and the way that he was normal and the way that he interacted with his friends and his relationships and his significant partners.

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And he then had to sort of shift and he had to force himself to relearn how he saw himself.

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But then at the same time he was going through the fact that other people kind of saw him in a different light as well.

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So it kind of equates that worth with appearance or function, like what he's able to do, and I think that that's a pitfall that sometimes people fall into where they look at external validation and there's also this initial desperation to undo that change like, especially when traumatic events happen, it's like people want to undo the bad thing that happened to them, whereas when we hate who we've become, then you become vulnerable to like exploitation and you've got to kind of learn that no external change will resolve the internal rejection that you feel for yourself.

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So the thing about the thing, the thing about the thing is when he actually chooses to be the thing again.

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That's when he realizes, you know, he stops seeing his condition as a curse, he accepts his identity as more than just his form and you know, he's showing up with what he has at that time and he has this self-determination that he can enact change and be himself.

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And he gains showing up with what he has at that time and he has this self-determination that he can enact change and be himself and he gains this self-respect and this community and this sense of purpose that he's able to move with.

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And it's also that message that not all change is chosen and not all change is visible, but every change gives us a chance to either resist and remain bitter, or accept and adapt and grow stronger, which is what I think he was able to do by the end of the movie.

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It's kind of like because for the longest time with me I was always somebody who I valued for myself.

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That's something that I wanted to change.

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A lot about myself was that I wanted to be like organized and punctual and on time to things, and I wanted to be able to complete complex tasks and be able to do all those things.

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So I had this self-perception of what I kind of wanted to be and I was constantly trying to fix that about myself all my life.

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And then when I got a ADHD diagnosis, I kind of had this mentality where I was like well, I now I can't do that because it's who I am Like, that's who I am.

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And you know, it wasn't the fact that I I couldn't do that anymore or I couldn't work towards doing that.

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It was the fact that my self-perception of it was that now, because this is now labeled, it's actually like a quote mark detriment to me, it's something that I can't do, where, in fact, I kind of just had to learn new ways to do it instead of what the normal ways that people would try to do those things are.

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So for me I kind of resonated with him, even though my transformation, you might say, wasn't physical.

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It was kind of like a mental change for me where I kind of had to come to terms with the fact that the identity that I wished for myself and the one that I was working on, I had to shift.

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The manner in which I was trying to achieve that and it was.

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It was really detrimental for a while because I was like, why isn't this working?

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Why can't I stick to this?

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Why can't I do this so in that way?

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And it's taken heaps of time, it's taken so much time, more than a two-hour movie.

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But that's kind of what I gained from this is that that change that you go through you know it doesn't always have to be visible and doesn't always have to like, but it has to be chosen.

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It has to be something that you choose to do and you have to accept and adapt and then grow, which is what Ben Grimm was able to do in this movie, and you know I'm still working on it, but I feel like I've been able to do it in some level too with my thing.

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So that's my takeaway.

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Thanks, ben, that's beautiful.

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Thanks, man.

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I'm pretty much going to have to piggyback off what she said, because mine was similar to yours in that it's no matter what, whoever you are in this world, shit's always going to happen and sometimes you just gotta roll the punches and it's just um.

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Have that.

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It's hard, hard to do, but have that acceptance of yourself.

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Yeah, like how ben has to have eventually come to the acceptance that for him to do what he needs to do, which and what he he thinks is right and how he feels, and that is protect his family, he has to make that sacrifice of becoming the thing and and then he accepts that and becomes really like his true self by accepting that same with like Johnny in the second one, where he's like has to sort of let go of that attention seeking and vanity to become someone that the other team can actually rely on instead of becoming a nuisance.

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Yeah, he had to drop that mask, like the mask that he'd been portraying to everybody.

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That made him feel safe, because he was showboating and because if people don't like that, that's fine, because that's not really who I am.

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Nobody sees the broken me because they see that showboat and that's fine.

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But whereas with Ben Grimm his difference was there for everybody to see.

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There was no masking.

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That's the thing and you know, when you're going through things like that it can lead you to some dangerous paths because you look for quick fixes and different things work for different people.

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But you know a lot of people look for quick fixes in situations like that, or external solutions or validation from others.

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It's like a common human thing.

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But yeah you've got to learn to become sort of self-determined and get that sort of respect and have self-acceptance as opposed to other acceptance.

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Yeah and fantastic for and this is what I think, what you're saying about the 2015, how that one showed that more the body dysmorphia side of things, I think that all of them have gone through, like all the Fantastic Four prime examples, in different ways of acceptance.

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So Ben's is more physical acceptance, johnny is more of a Internal emotional, internal emotional maturity acceptance and reads more of a.

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He needs to accept the love and care of people around him and join in on that.

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Yeah, and also the limitations of his own intelligence as well.

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Hubris is his hubris, yeah, instead of being like he may be one of the smartest people on the planet, but that's not going to solve all of his problems.

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Um, and then sue is, she just needs to accept the fact that she can't be the emotional rock for them in the heart and the soul of them all the time.

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She needs to take time for herself yes, perfect, um, and and just needs that time to self-reflect and recharge.

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And, as you were saying too, like I think, and everyone goes through something's in a similar vein, but always different, and it's just about accepting that fact.

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Like I wish I was, I wish my hair wasn't starting to recede, even though I'm trying my best to not let it recede.

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I wish I was in better shape Not that I'm in terrible shape, but I wish I was just in the shape I was in like four years ago, not that long ago and there's things I can do to fix that, but then there's also other things in my life that are stopping me from focusing on that, and there's things I can do to fix that, but then there's also other things in my life that are stopping me from focusing on that, and there's just so much going on and just at some point you just have to be like all right, I can't, I can't focus on trying to do all these things.

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Fantastic Four (2005) Part Two - What Ben Grimm's "The Thing" and Marvel's First Family Teaches Us About Accepting Change

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