Fantastic Four (2005) Part One - Exploring Doctor Doom's Marvel Legacy. From Julian McMahon to Robert Downey Jr

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Hello everybody and welcome to the Fandom Portals podcast.

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This is the podcast where we explore the fandoms that help us learn and grow.

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In this episode, brash and I looked at the 2005 classic, the Fantastic Four.

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In this episode, we look at who our community's most popular member of the Fantastic Four roster is.

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We also look at how Fox dialed in their target audience of teenage boys through the use of music, tone and casting, and we also take a deep dive into the character of Doctor Doom, especially Julian McMahon's performance in this 2005 movie.

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We also look at what makes a good Doctor Doom and we look at our predictions for how Marvel dances around the Tony Stark, doctor Doom and Robert Downey Jr announcement in the upcoming Avengers and Fantastic Four First Step, first steps movie.

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In this episode, you will also find out how you can be a lucky recipient of a family pass to your local movie theater, because we are giving away one on the fandom portals podcast.

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So tune in and enjoy this episode on the fantastic four from 2005.

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I am joined here by my co-host, brash.

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Brash, how are you going tonight?

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I'm on, I'm doing very well.

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Well, it's clobbering time because we're about to hit this fantastic fall movie from 2005.

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Directed by Tim Story, written by Mark Frost and Michael France and, obviously, stan Lee.

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It's starring Yohan Griffith yeah, we looked up how to say that Michael Chiklis, chris Evans, jessica Alba, and it had a budget of do you know how much Brash Ooh a budget of.

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Do you know how much Brash Ooh a budget of?

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Oh, actually it did have a budget of $100 million.

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It sure did, and it was very profitable financially.

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It made $334 million worldwide gross on the box office.

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Before we get into all of that information on this amazing IP of the Fantastic Four, we're going to get into our gratitudes and growths.

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Brash, I might go first this time, so go for it.

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My gratitude today is for YouTube chefs, and the reason that I'm grateful for them is because, as I told you earlier, I'm just now on school holidays, so I'm trying to do a bit more around the house to help my partner, who's been carrying the load at home for a long time.

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So I just said to her okay, love, I'll cook you dinner and I don't know how to cook.

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So I had to feed a family of four and I had no idea how to do it.

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So I went to Woolworths and I was like, what am I going to do?

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So I started looking up YouTube cooking recipes and I was able to find one that was quite nice and I successfully achieved dinner for four.

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And you know, usually my partner takes on a lot of the cooking duties.

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I like to do it every here and there, but you know I wanted to do something nice.

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So thank you, youtube chefs, for successfully allowing me to cook for my family today.

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That's my gratitude.

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Oh yeah, oh yeah, I've also got a gratitude Beautiful.

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I am grateful for wrestling.

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Yeah, bud, especially of late.

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It's kept me sane, like I used to love wrestling when I was younger and then I stopped watching it for a long period of time because I was a broke, poor little tradie and couldn't afford the Oz star that I needed to watch it.

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So anytime I could watch it, it was at like friends' houses and stuff like that, where the parents had, or when I was over at their parents houses I went with their all star.

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Now and lately I mean, I was watching on Binge and everything like that, because I was, I can afford Binge and that stuff now, but now it's on Netflix.

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It's so much easier to watch and yeah, it's just, it's been sort of like a help from just like the menial tasks of everyday life and just going to work, coming home, going to work, coming home.

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No, that's a good gratitude man.

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It's good to have something to look forward to as you come home from work.

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You know something to make all the grind worthwhile.

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So, after our gratitude and growth, we always go into our first takes segment.

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In our first takes segment, we discuss how we first encountered the media, what our initial impressions of the media were and our feelings on the movie after having watched it.

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We'll also share our community's thoughts on this movie for those who have contributed to our social page, and if you would like to do that, you can do so on our Reddits, on our threads or our Instagram, and all of those are in the show notes below.

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So, as we said, we are looking at Fantastic Four from 2005.

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It is written by Mark Frost, michael Franz and also the great Stan Lee, directed by Tim Story.

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It is starring Johan Griffith and Michael Chiglis in the titular roles.

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It is about a group of astronauts who gain superpowers after a cosmic radiation exposure and must use them to oppose the plans of their enemy.

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Dr Victor Von Doom that is a supervillain name Rash Straight away.

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When you hear that name, you're like, ah, villain, exactly, I know.

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Which begs the question how does he become such an illustrious businessman with a name like that.

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It's crazy, even the thing, though, his name is Ben Grimm.

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It's like yeah.

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And he's the one that has to deal with the most shit, as his body changes Exactly, and he's like the one that has to deal with like the most shit, as his body changes Exactly.

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It is a groom transformation.

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So how did you first encounter this movie and the Fantastic Four, brash?

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We'll let you go first for this one.

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I'm pretty sure, because I'm pretty sure I went and watched this with my ex-brother-in-law Because we used to go to watch.

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We used to go, like me, and you do like go to the cinemas all the time and watch all the newest shit to go at, because my sister wouldn't watch it with him.

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Did you have a favorite From the movie?

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My favorite was Jessica Alba.

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Sue Storm, because it's Jessica Alba, but yeah, back then I think she was like the.

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If you asked any teenage boy who their celebrity crush was, it was Jessica Elba, but yeah, but even still, sue Storm, just alone her powers are just insane compared to like she's the strongest member.

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Oh, 100%, yeah, 100%, yeah.

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I actually also went and saw this in the cinema when it came out in 2006,.

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I believe it was when it came out in Australia or 2005, late 2005.

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And it was one of the times when they used to do cinema movie marathons.

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So I was 15 or 16 at the time.

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I went with a couple of friends and my then girlfriend at the time.

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We watched that one and a couple of other movies and, yeah, it was a really it was a great movie for a teenager to go and see because it was full of action, the characters were bright and awesome and poppy and it was like a media that I already loved, because previous to that, the first time I'd seen the Fantastic Four was through the cartoon, but I'd only just briefly sort of watched that.

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The main time I saw it was when I was at the public library.

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I was about 14 years old.

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Shout out to public libraries, you guys are awesome.

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And they had this teenage section and I'd never been in there before because I felt like I was too young for the books that were in there.

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But I went in there because I found out from one of my friends that they actually had graphic novels in their comic books.

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So I was like I'm in.

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Yeah, I went in there and, you know, looked up some comic books and the first one that I found was a Fantastic Four comic from 2003 that was called Unthinkable.

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It was a four-part series and it's basically the time when Dr Doom forgoes science and dives into mysticism.

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But, yeah, it's a really kind of dark comic and in the end of it it kind of leaves Reed Richards' face just hideously scarred forever and ever and ever.

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And that was the first time I saw Fantastic Four and I loved them because they were this united family.

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They were actually a really legit family with children and everything, with Franklin and Valeria, and each one of them were different but they all complemented each other.

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And then the movie was also announced and coming out as well.

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So I was really excited for the Fantastic Four.

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So big fan of the Fantastic Four here at the Aaron camp, at Phantom Portals and yeah, they've kind of been a superhero team that they're probably my second favorite overall after the X-Men, yeah.

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So, yeah, let's dive into what our who's, your favorite?

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Oh, that's a good question.

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My favorite is the.

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I've Changed because when I first started reading them it was always Johnny Storm.

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Yeah, loved him, loved his cocky attitude, loved the fact that he was more nuanced and in-depth than what people realized.

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But now my favorite is Sue Storm.

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I like her because she's the emotional core and the heart of the group and she's obviously the strongest and she just represents everything that the Fantastic Four is.

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Yeah.

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So yeah, she's my favorite as well.

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We dropped that question onto our threads, and our threads question was who is your favorite member of the fantastic four?

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We had about 85 votes.

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Come through from our amazing listeners and guess who the most popular member of the fantastic four is, according to our community brash well, like my heart's telling me sue storm, but I have a feeling it's gonna be john Johnny Storm.

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So, with 32% of the votes, our community's favorite Fantastic Four member is the Thing.

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Oh shit.

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Yeah, no, the Thing is pretty awesome, he is pretty awesome.

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And then, after that, very close in second place 29% of our community liked the Human Torch.

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And you guess who was the least popular?

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Sue Storm.

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Yes, unfortunately, sue Storm was the least popular, with 16%, mrfantastic tying in the third place with 22% of our voters.

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I mean, I get it, Especially if they're going off the movie version.

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Absolutely I do get it.

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But we'll probably get into that later.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that.

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Yeah, if they were going off the movie version, that's definitely these two with the thing and the torch got the most screen time and they're probably the most rewarding as well.

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But yes, we will get into that later.

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We also put a post on our threads that said what did you think of this movie, the Fantastic Four movie from 2005?

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And we had Sterling Hicks say that it was phenomenal but flawed.

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I accept the criticisms of Doom, but they were never going to do a sorcerer with an Iron man suit character in the early 2000s and at least his suit looked cool.

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He said that Sue also got hit with the eye candy, which is accurate to the original Lee run.

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He says that it's flawed for the time and the thing was perfect.

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It was the best portrayal.

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No notes at all.

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He's only got love for the Fantastic Four from 2005.

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So that was Sterling Hicks.

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We have certain speculation says I was an extra in it.

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This is actually someone who was an extra in the movie and it says and very much enjoyed the film when it was new.

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I'd have liked to see it continue with the same cast for more movies than two.

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So that was good we had yeah, that was certain speculation from our threads.

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We had Walter Paisley, one that said it was fun, which was the whole entire point, which I can agree with as well, and then, you know, we had some other people that said that it was great fun.

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We also had DrPhil0525, not the real DrPhil says it needed more superheroing.

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I mean, it is an origin story, but here's the thing as well that they said that I thought was quite interesting.

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They said that we never really learned what Doom's evil plan was.

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Yeah, true, like, yeah, we didn't really have Exactly, it was more like he was just pissed off at the fact that he was losing his company.

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Yeah, it was a revenge plot the whole time.

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Yeah, he was pissed off, he lost the company and he blames all the fantastic yeah exactly right and then we'll flick over to our Reddits.

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We had Redrum71 said I still don't get the hate for this movie.

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We also have the Laughing man of Red said that Fantastic Four was one of the biggest Marvel IPs out there and it seems to balance things out pretty well.

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Both movies work well enough in my eyes for setting a decent tone and getting some solace chemistry between the cast, but I think that fox was the movie's greatest enemy.

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They aimed to do a reboot as early as 2009, about two years after the sequel came out, and the reboot attempt led to that 2015 movie, which did 167 million against 120 million and was an absolute failure.

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We have also uh, agile.

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C6447 says that it was pretty terrible.

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Honestly, love the comics was really looking forward7 says that it was pretty terrible.

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Honestly, love the comics Was really looking forward to this and it was a big and huge disappointment.

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And then we also had MPF that said saw it once and that was enough.

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A couple of mixed bag reviews there from our community.

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I understand where they're coming from.

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Yeah, I definitely do as well.

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And you know, I think for this one, talking about the tone and the appeal of the movie, it was definitely great or gated towards a young adult.

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Yeah, dynamic, you know it was backing off the success of the spider-man movies spider-man 1 and spider-man 2 where they said, you know, superhero movies can be taken semi-seriously, with some comedic undertones, and I think that kind of fit for the time period as well, instead of going too dark, which the 2015 movie attempted to do.

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And then, you know, too light and comical probably wouldn't have fit for this kind of movie, especially using Dr Doom as the villain.

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I don't really see how you can make a comedic movie with him helming the villain spot.

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Yeah, dr Doom is one that you need to have a sort of semi-serious movie about if you can't make light of Doctor.

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Doom, absolutely.

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Let's get into our Fandom Fact Face-Off.

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Our Fandom Fact Face-Off is where the hosts ask one another a series of trivia questions associated with the Focus movie For this month.

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The hosts will work as a team to collect points awarded for correct answers.

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If the hosts earn a total of 15 points, a lucky listener will win a gift voucher to the movies.

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That's right.

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You heard it correctly.

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We're doing a giveaway for this month, our Marvel month, here at Fandom Portals Podcast, and you can take your family to the movies on us.

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The way that you enter that is, you go to wwwfandomportalspodcastcom and you sign on to our emailing list and the successful winner will be drawn on April 30th.

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All right, so Brash, this time in celebration of Marvel month, as we just heard, we're working as a team a good old classic Marvel team up, comic book crossover Marvel team up.

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Yeah, so we're still going to be telling each other trivia and hoping the other one gets the answer correctly, but we're going to be setting the same rules that we usually go by, which means we read the question, you're allowed one clue throughout all three of your questions and you can ask for a little bit of clarification if you think that the question hasn't been asked properly.

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That the question hasn't been asked properly, but we're working as a team, rash, we're a team.

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This time a team, you can go first.

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Ooh, okay, this one might be fun.

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You might know, and it might be interesting because it's one of your favourite groups in the Mount Marble universe.

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Who else was offered the role of Reed Richards, and in a deleted scene, reed actually used his powers to turn into that person?

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I do know this.

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This is when Reed Richards was talking to Sue Storm on the bridge and he was talking about the kind of man that Sue Storm wanted to be with and he thought that she would want to be with a stronger man.

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And as he said that, he morphed his face into the Australian legend of Hugh Jackman and I believe that he was cast, or wanting to be they wanted him to be cast as Reed Richards, but obviously he was already part of the X-Men universe at the time.

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That is correct, hugh Jackman, fantastic.

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So guess what, listeners, that's 1.14 more to go, and some lucky family gets to go to the movies on us.

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So, brash, here is your question.

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Michael Chiklis played the blue-eyed, ever-loving Thing in this movie, and usually for roles like this, they encourage the use of CGI, as had been done before in the Incredible Hulk movie that came out a few years earlier.

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What was the reason they decided to go with the practical suit for the thing in this 2005 movie of Fantastic?

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Four, because Michael Chiklis was the only person who was actually a fan of the Fantastic Four and didn't want to do a disservice by having it CGI and wanted to be as realistic as possible.

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Absolutely correct.

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He pushed hard against the studio in the early inclination to actually create this character through a practical suit.

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He felt that wearing the suit would give empathy to Ben Grimm as he was playing it.

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It would allow him to feel the alienation because he was physically different from the cast that he was around and he also wanted to feel the physical discomfort and the isolation which would mirror the emotional journey that Ben Grimm's thing would go on through his transformation.

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So he was very dedicated.

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He was a massive fan of the comics.

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He was actually one of the few, as you said, and Stan Lee actually said himself that this was one of the best portrayals of the thing that he could have ever seen.

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He actually went on Entertainment Weekly and he said I really didn't want to be acting towards tennis balls in reference to motion capture, and he says that you lose something essential when the other actors can't see or feel the character that you're playing.

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So he felt like the chemistry between the actual four would have been a disservice or would have been lost if he was motion captured or cgi'd, which is interesting because in the new one I think they've gone for a combined approach.

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They've gone for ebbing moss back rack to be playing the thing in a practical suit, but also using some c CGI in times as well.

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Yeah, correct, two points, there we go.

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13 to go, your turn, bro.

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Julian McMahon, who plays Dr Doom.

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So he's the character of Doom.

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He inspired his guard.

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Look his scars and how they were sealed off of a TV show that he was a part of.

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Do you know what that TV show was?

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Yes, I do so.

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He's referring to the scene where he's sort of picking out the staples from his scar and he's doing so in a very meticulous kind of way, actually flicking them out of his wound and onto the desk in front of him and he's looking really sadistic as he does it.

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He did that because he spent so many years in a show called Nip Tuck and that focused on obviously surgical procedures, so he felt like adding that element to Dr Doom would really emphasize his performance, giving him something familiar that he'd already sort of knew and adding that into the Dr Doom performance.

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Is that correct?

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That is correct, cause I love Nip Tuck.

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And the only reason why I love Nip Tuck and the only reason why I actually watch Nip Tuck is usually like because ER and Laika shit was on at the time.

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But I never really got into those sort of shows.

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But I got into it because because Julian was in it, and only because Julian was in Charmed and I loved Charmed yeah and because, yeah, because I'm like, oh, he's in this show.

00:18:00.642 --> 00:18:08.174
I'm gonna watch this show because he's in it yeah yeah, I think, um, like julian mcmahon is australian as well, which is, you know, shout out australian actors.

00:18:08.174 --> 00:18:08.535
We love them.

00:18:08.535 --> 00:18:13.880
And, yeah, he he's probably the cast member that received the most flack towards his performance.

00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:17.059
We'll probably get into that a little bit later, but the next question here we go, brash, are you ready?

00:18:17.059 --> 00:18:17.480
Okay?

00:18:17.662 --> 00:18:28.288
So this movie was directed by tim story and produced by Avi Arad, and they acknowledged that they had to change the tone halfway through development of the movie.

00:18:28.288 --> 00:18:38.428
They wanted to create a movie that emphasized the psychological toll of this mutation and the dysfunctional family dynamics of the Fantastic Four, which is definitely epitomized in the comic books.

00:18:38.428 --> 00:18:45.130
Very much so, but they changed it to a more lighthearted and family-friendly vibe for a particular reason.

00:18:45.130 --> 00:18:46.765
Do you know what that reason was?

00:18:46.765 --> 00:18:47.467
I got a hint.

00:18:47.467 --> 00:18:49.326
Yes, you can use your hint for this.

00:18:49.326 --> 00:19:05.586
The reason they changed it is because they saw that a family-friendly vibe would work, because it had worked for a movie that is extremely similar, made in 2004, just a year before that was made by Disney Pixar.

00:19:06.281 --> 00:19:06.944
Oh, was it.

00:19:06.944 --> 00:19:10.768
Oh, actually the other really Pixar superhero thing could be the Incredibles.

00:19:11.190 --> 00:19:25.730
That's it, yeah, so the Incredibles came out in 2004, and they found that it smashed box offices everywhere and a lot of people to this day say that the Incredibles is the best Fantastic Four movie ever made, because they just nail that family vibe and because of that.

00:19:26.300 --> 00:19:26.821
They've all got well.

00:19:26.821 --> 00:19:29.829
I'd say similar powers, but like they literally do.

00:19:29.829 --> 00:19:36.171
Yeah, the only thing they're missing is, well, baby Jackson's getting fire powers, but he has like a whole multitude of powers, exactly.

00:19:36.332 --> 00:19:36.815
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:36.815 --> 00:19:57.346
So yeah, the Incredibles definitely was an inspiration on the tone of this film, just like the Fantastic Four was definitely an inspiration on the Incredibles, that family of superheroes that are going through human family struggles, and because of that the studio obviously also wanted to make their film successful, so decided to go with a lighthearted tone.

00:19:57.346 --> 00:20:09.736
Story admits in the commentary that while the changes helped the film to reach a broader audience, he felt that it may have compromised on some emotional weight that he wanted to go into in some of the scenes throughout the movie as well.

00:20:09.736 --> 00:20:18.744
Uh, he actually says in the DVD commentary that we always wanted to make a movie that appealed to the whole family, but there were some moments that I would have liked to push deeper into emotionally and was unable to.

00:20:18.744 --> 00:20:20.711
The Incredibles yeah, all right.

00:20:20.711 --> 00:20:22.123
So that means we have four points so far, which, yeah, all right.

00:20:22.123 --> 00:20:27.155
So that means we have four points so far, which means our community needs 11 more before we send one of them, lucky listeners, off to the community.

00:20:27.155 --> 00:20:28.419
Off to the community.

00:20:31.328 --> 00:20:31.830
Off to the movies.

00:20:31.830 --> 00:20:32.292
You'll go bro.

00:20:32.292 --> 00:20:35.184
This one's going to be really hard for you.

00:20:35.184 --> 00:20:38.030
I'm very sorry, so I'll try and help you out, but it's going to be really difficult.

00:20:38.030 --> 00:20:39.554
It's going to be quite difficult.

00:20:39.554 --> 00:20:46.634
Okay, so other actresses were considered for the role of Sue Storm.

00:20:46.634 --> 00:20:51.231
One of these actresses is also an extremely famous female wrestler.

00:20:51.231 --> 00:20:53.905
Do you know who that?

00:20:53.986 --> 00:20:56.162
female wrestler is Okay.

00:20:56.162 --> 00:21:07.748
So actresses that were considered for Sue Storm I know that when Dennis Quaid and Meg Ryan were thought to do the role at one point when another director was attached, I want my hint, Brash.

00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:09.351
Because she is still current.

00:21:09.351 --> 00:21:23.457
Um, she was in the last female, uh, royal Rumble and she is currently, or more recently, teamed up with the current women's world champion, oh sorry, women's North American champion, tiffany Straton.

00:21:23.457 --> 00:21:26.663
No, I don't know, you're gonna have to tell me Trish Stratus.

00:21:26.663 --> 00:21:33.919
Oh, I do know her because she's still current at the moment and she was a diva back in the diva era as well, she was like one of the first, wasn't she?

00:21:34.019 --> 00:21:34.621
Or one of the main ones?

00:21:35.615 --> 00:21:38.500
She's been wrestling for a very long time and she's still doing it now.

00:21:39.096 --> 00:21:39.297
Yeah.

00:21:39.297 --> 00:22:01.006
So some other actresses that were pitted to play Sue Storm was Julia Stiles, kate Bosworth, rachel McAdams, scarlett Johansson, elizabeth Banks as well at various times, because this movie also suffered from multitude of directors at the time as well, until Tim's story eventually landed the top gig and he was just coming off the success of his barbershop movies.

00:22:01.006 --> 00:22:04.220
So he'd never done an action movie or anything like that, he'd only done comedies.

00:22:04.220 --> 00:22:17.406
So, yeah, the casting for this movie and what I just say as well, the casting for this movie, the four main actors that got the roles in the Fantastic Four Johan Gruffydd, michael Chiklis, jessica Alba and also Chris Evans as Johnny Storm.

00:22:17.775 --> 00:22:21.705
A lot of people said in our community that this is a perfectly casted movie.

00:22:21.705 --> 00:22:27.901
Like, looks wise, everybody looks like their parts and they kind of did a good job in portraying them as well.

00:22:27.901 --> 00:22:41.678
There was some controversy about Jessica Alba being a Hispanic actress and then obviously being portrayed as a blonde-haired, blue-eyed individual, but overall I think everybody was quite happy with the way that the movie was cast.

00:22:41.678 --> 00:22:42.078
All right.

00:22:42.078 --> 00:22:43.382
My question, last one.

00:22:43.423 --> 00:22:49.163
I don't know if you'll get this, because this is kind of in line with my teenagehood years.

00:22:49.163 --> 00:23:10.565
So the movie is known and well known to be targeted towards a teenage audience and as a result of that, they used a particular style of music whenever Johnny Storm was on, really to push that early 20s kind of demographic that identified with rebellious, guitar-driven kind of music.

00:23:10.565 --> 00:23:19.075
So can you name one of the bands from the Fantastic Four soundtrack that played one of these songs Soundtrack?

00:23:19.075 --> 00:23:35.686
The album released about a month or two before the theatrical release of the movie and it had a whole bunch of really awesome early 2000s pop punk bands that were literally on my DVR playlist.

00:23:36.576 --> 00:23:41.825
I'm trying to think of the song, but the very first song, when Johnny's riding on a bike.

00:23:43.375 --> 00:23:48.563
There's also another moment when Johnny and his future wife, the nurse that's looking after him, is jumping out of the helicopter.

00:23:48.563 --> 00:23:52.877
They're going to ski down the snowy mountain peak, Like I know.

00:23:53.901 --> 00:24:09.837
oh um one of my favorite uh, oh, actually two of my favorite bands, I know of that were in this altar bridge and some 41 yes, some, 41 is the song that I was thinking of, their song newts, newts yeah yeah, which you know is sometimes referred to as the no apologies song.

00:24:10.380 --> 00:24:15.539
It is, uh, really, really prominent through that moment where johnny storm is skiing down the mountainside.

00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:27.949
And they use this kind of music in these bands because they wanted to tap into that early 20s demographic and they knew that there was an emo pop punk scene that was bursting through and they want to cross promote, you might say, through Hollywood.

00:24:27.949 --> 00:24:33.587
And you know, a lot of the time when movies like this come out, a lot of the soundtrack can be hit or miss.

00:24:33.587 --> 00:24:40.730
You know, when we're talking about soundtracks, there's obviously the unforgettable soundtrack of the Guardians of the Galaxy with James Gunn.

00:24:40.730 --> 00:24:58.557
He absolutely nailed that vibe and this was an early attempt at doing something similar, you know, highlighting musical elements that fit the character, especially of Johnny Storm, with that emo pop punk scene, which is why I think a lot of teenage characters, myself included, really emanated with Johnny Storm, because whenever he was on the screen the music that we loved was playing All right.

00:24:58.557 --> 00:25:12.625
So that ends our Fandom Fact Face-Off segment and we are currently sitting at five points for our amazing Marvel team-up for our community, which means that there is ten more points on the table for us to get before we send one lucky listener to the movies on us.

00:25:12.625 --> 00:25:20.606
Remember, if you wanted to join that giveaway, all you have to do is sign up to our emailing list, which you can do so at wwwfandomportalspodcastcom.

00:25:21.375 --> 00:25:24.444
All right, this week we're going to go into our Devil's Avocado segment.

00:25:24.444 --> 00:25:30.391
In this segment, the hosts dive deep into the world of what-if scenarios.

00:25:30.391 --> 00:25:36.387
They explore alternate endings, casting choices or even entire story beats that could have changed the course of the film or the media.

00:25:36.387 --> 00:25:41.507
We analyze whether these alternate ideas would have been a hit or a miss compared to the original version.

00:25:41.507 --> 00:25:44.064
Got a couple of Devils Avocado questions for you this week, brash.

00:25:44.064 --> 00:25:55.108
They're all centered around Doctor Doom, doctor Doom, doctor Doom he is probably one of the most prolific villains in Marvel history, cinematic, comic or otherwise.

00:25:55.615 --> 00:25:56.660
There is only Duel.

00:25:57.756 --> 00:26:10.767
He's definitely got lots of those kind of one-liners that are all plays on his name, which is why I don't know how he had a career outside of being a supervillain, let alone how he was elected as a sovereign of an entire country.

00:26:10.767 --> 00:26:20.901
So here's a question for you, because we know that the Doctor Doom is the most recent villain in the MCU, being played by Robert Downey Jr.

00:26:20.901 --> 00:26:24.057
Yes, I fucking hate it, you hate it.

00:26:24.136 --> 00:26:26.979
I fucking hate it, you hate it, I hate it, I hate it so much.

00:26:26.979 --> 00:26:28.777
Yeah right, let's talk about it, let's talk about it.

00:26:28.797 --> 00:26:35.526
So how do you think Marvel used Tony Stark as Doom in the Fantastic Four First Steps movie in 2005.

00:26:35.526 --> 00:26:42.843
And then again also, we know that he's probably going to be in the Doomsday movie and Secret Wars movie, both directed by the Russo brothers.

00:26:42.843 --> 00:26:43.960
What are your thoughts on this?

00:26:44.375 --> 00:26:49.526
They're going to do some altered timeline shenanigans or some bullshit, which I hate.

00:26:49.526 --> 00:26:53.944
I hate this, Like I don't mind the alternate timelines and stuff.

00:26:53.944 --> 00:26:59.421
I like how they did it, but I like how they blended it all back into one timeline again.

00:26:59.575 --> 00:27:00.900
Well, yeah, that's the thing as well.

00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:07.500
I think that there has been lots of comic book adaptations where it's sort of happened before.

00:27:07.734 --> 00:27:12.044
Yeah, and there is a Tony Stark.

00:27:12.125 --> 00:27:16.486
Doom In the infamous Iron man comics from 2016 to 2017.

00:27:16.835 --> 00:27:19.082
But that's dumb.

00:27:19.403 --> 00:27:20.065
That's dumb.

00:27:20.065 --> 00:27:26.278
That actually that version that everybody's talking about, where they say Doctor Doom becomes Iron man, like in the comic books.

00:27:26.278 --> 00:27:46.701
It's actually the other way Doctor Doom becomes Iron man, not Iron man becomes Doctor Doom, because after Tony Stark has this, he apparently dies and then Doom attempts to reform and become not so much of a villain and he tries to become the Iron man and explores Doom's legacy and how he struggles with redemption and how nobody will accept him because of all the evils that he's done before.

00:27:46.701 --> 00:28:01.424
So everybody's referring to this infamous Iron man as a way that they can adapt it, but it's actually a story of how Doctor Doom tries to be good and not how tony stark turns bad um, like he played iron man for so long and now he's coming back as dr doom.

00:28:02.046 --> 00:28:02.887
It's, it's.

00:28:03.028 --> 00:28:19.300
I can't yeah, and I can see that as well, because his sacrifice at the end of end game was so I think it was epic like epic, but bringing him back as Doom makes it feel pointless because he's just back in it again.

00:28:19.642 --> 00:28:20.684
Yeah, that was his out.

00:28:20.684 --> 00:28:47.055
That's like how Steve Rogers come back as an old man because he went back in time and lived his life like he should have back in one of the back in 30s or it was, and comes back as an old man, gives his shield over to Sam and says, alright, kid, you take the wheel and sort of flies us off, passing him the torch exactly and like Iron man sort of did that with Spider-Man with Steve Parker.

00:28:47.055 --> 00:28:51.519
It just ruins his bow out he had this epic, amazing bow out of his sacrifice.

00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:54.280
To just come back in as a bad guy, it's like yeah.

00:28:54.701 --> 00:29:14.647
Yeah, and I think that at the time when they announced that Marvel was in a little bit of trouble because a lot of the movies that they were producing and making, they weren't really hitting the mark with audiences and as a result they kind of needed an ace in the hole, because that came out of left field for me when they announced that on the stage and he pulled off his mask, there were so many theories about who would be cast as Doctor Doom in the future.

00:29:14.647 --> 00:29:20.375
And Tony Stark sorry, not Tony Stark Robert Downey Jr was not even top five on my list.

00:29:20.656 --> 00:29:22.703
Because he was Iron man, mm-hmm.

00:29:23.224 --> 00:29:23.346
Yeah.

00:29:24.785 --> 00:29:35.241
I don't understand how they're gonna dance around the fact that if he comes back into the actual Marvel Universe, marvel Cinematic Universe, people are just gonna be like.

00:29:35.241 --> 00:29:35.928
People are just going to be like.

00:29:35.928 --> 00:29:36.694
Are people going to be like?

00:29:36.694 --> 00:29:38.622
Oh shit, it's Tony Stark and he's going to be like.

00:29:38.622 --> 00:29:39.525
Nah, I'm a victim on Doom.

00:29:40.316 --> 00:29:41.903
Well, there's two ways that they can do it really.

00:29:42.756 --> 00:29:45.163
They keep him as Tony Stark, but just as bad.

00:29:45.183 --> 00:29:52.767
Well, yeah, they can keep him as Tony Stark and adapt to some kind of storyline where he Doom as a variant or something like that.

00:29:52.767 --> 00:29:59.521
Or they can do what they did with Risa Farms in the Sony universe and just cast him as Dr Doom, and I hope nobody knows.

00:29:59.521 --> 00:30:09.661
So he played Tony Stark and then now he's being cast as Victor Von Doom and there isn't actually a comic storyline in their following where Tony Stark and Victor Von Doom are linked.

00:30:09.661 --> 00:30:16.648
Perhaps they're just expecting us to go with the fact that Robert Downey Jr is now going to be Victor Von Doom, and that is what we should do.

00:30:16.648 --> 00:30:24.137
However, if they are going to go with a comic book version, I've got a few here that I'll tell you about and I'll see if you actually think, okay, that could work.

00:30:24.137 --> 00:30:24.980
All right, are you ready for these?

00:30:24.980 --> 00:30:26.256
Okay, yeah, all right.

00:30:26.256 --> 00:30:30.962
So there is a what-if comic book version that this kind of thing happens.

00:30:30.962 --> 00:30:37.741
It's called Demon in Armor, and what happens is we all know that Doctor Doom and Reed Richards were roommates in college.

00:30:37.741 --> 00:30:43.243
Now, in this what-if version, reed was never Doom's roommate, stark was.

00:30:43.243 --> 00:30:49.500
Stark always had his fortune and Doom was always as nefarious as he's always been.

00:30:49.500 --> 00:30:57.520
And in this reality, doom actually swaps bodies with Stark and uses his fortune to then create an empire and take over the world.

00:30:57.520 --> 00:31:08.186
So that may be something that's happened in the past, where Stark and Doom were college roommates and Doom's consciousness is in Stark's body.

00:31:08.186 --> 00:31:16.982
And therefore Doom Stark, played by Robert Downey Jr, uses the fortune of Tony Stark to build this empire and take over the world.

00:31:16.982 --> 00:31:26.049
And you know, basically, I think because the one line that he said when he revealed himself was you know, same task, new mask.

00:31:26.214 --> 00:31:28.575
And Tony Stark's always been about putting a shield of armor around the world.

00:31:28.575 --> 00:31:36.569
He's always thought that his mission to protect the world, at whatever cost, was justified by the fact that he was protecting everybody.

00:31:36.569 --> 00:31:39.423
And that is something that's very common with Victor Von Doom as well.

00:31:39.423 --> 00:31:42.884
He thinks he's the only one that can save the world and is smart enough to save the world.

00:31:42.884 --> 00:31:47.799
And the fact that he does it by nefarious or villainous means is where the conflict comes in with all the heroes.

00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:50.041
So I think that is a way that they could do it.

00:31:50.041 --> 00:31:50.990
What do you think about the demon in armor?

00:31:50.990 --> 00:31:51.556
Approach Brash.

00:31:51.517 --> 00:31:59.134
What do you think about the demon in armor approach Brash so Lex Luthor wants to protect the earth by doing nefarious, bad things and killing all the aliens and shit that are on the planet.

00:31:59.134 --> 00:32:01.162
Yep, yep, yep.

00:32:01.162 --> 00:32:12.200
Being rich, being rich, being evil, wanting being very prejudiced against anyone but humans okay, so not a fan of that one.

00:32:12.220 --> 00:32:12.883
I've got another one for you.

00:32:12.903 --> 00:32:16.465
Here we go, brash well, I'm not saying I'm not a fan, but the other way it doesn't sort of.

00:32:16.465 --> 00:32:27.140
Well, I'm curious that how it would work if they did switch bodies but then Tony Stark, as Tony Stark is dead.

00:32:27.140 --> 00:32:28.423
But was that?

00:32:28.423 --> 00:32:29.266
Was Robert?

00:32:29.266 --> 00:32:34.342
See, the fact that it's Robert Downey Jr is what makes it implausible.

00:32:34.342 --> 00:32:41.839
So if someone else was playing Iron man and then Robert Downey Jr was playing Thing, the way that they would do.

00:32:41.859 --> 00:33:00.075
That is, they would cast somebody else as Victor Von Doom, as the body of Victor Von Doom, and Robert Downey Jr would play Tony Stark, and then, when they switched bodies, robert Downey Jr would take on the personality of Victor Von Doom instead of Tony Stark's personality, and that other actor of Doom would just fade off into the distance.

00:33:01.579 --> 00:33:04.784
How has that Robert Downey Jr get into the timeline?

00:33:04.934 --> 00:33:15.960
Well, I think that then talks about what's going to happen in Fantastic Four First Steps, because I'm not sure if he's going to be a prominent part of that movie or whether he's going to be a post-credits scene.

00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:27.337
But whatever happens in that movie is what's going to set up Secret Wars and what's going to set up Doomsday, because the Fantastic Four need to get to the 616 timeline and therefore so does Doctor Doom.

00:33:27.337 --> 00:33:31.838
So whatever happens in those movies is going to predict how this is going to work.

00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:48.066
And that may be the only way I could see that happening is if there's some sort of dimensional rift or something that maybe say, like Robert Downey Jr, victor Von Doom is fighting with the Fantastic Four in their world.

00:33:48.066 --> 00:33:54.039
The part that is going to take me out of it a bit is the fact that everyone's going to be like, oh shit, it's Tony Stark.

00:33:54.795 --> 00:33:55.017
All right.

00:33:55.017 --> 00:34:03.666
So I worked backwards, right, and I'm going to give you my theory of what happens, and if this comes correct, I want everybody to clip this and send it viral worldwide.

00:34:03.666 --> 00:34:04.415
All right, here we go.

00:34:04.415 --> 00:34:07.945
So we obviously know secret wars is coming out and we know doom war is coming out.

00:34:07.945 --> 00:34:14.331
In secret wars, which is the 2015 comic, doom gains godlike powers and becomes the god emperor Doom.

00:34:14.331 --> 00:34:15.456
He proceeds over Battle World.

00:34:15.456 --> 00:34:22.186
So we know that in Secret Wars, all these heroes are going to come together, they're going to battle each other and it's going to basically turn the multiverse into one timeline again.

00:34:22.186 --> 00:34:23.677
All right, keep that in your brain.

00:34:23.978 --> 00:34:33.387
Doom War In Doom War, doom wages a war against Wakanda in order to steal its vibranium Okay, and he needs to steal a vibranium, I think, in these movies.

00:34:33.387 --> 00:34:41.054
Okay, and he needs to steal a vibranium, I think, in these movies, to create some scientific device that is going to allow him to create or transport everybody to this battle world.

00:34:41.054 --> 00:34:49.219
Now, doom world war, or doomsday as it is called in the movie do more, is the 2010 comic that's based on doom day.

00:34:49.219 --> 00:35:02.744
I believe is going to be the primary inspiration for Doomsday, because they've already announced that the Wakandans, x-men and the Fantastic Four are going to unite to stop Doom, and that's basically the premise of Doom War.

00:35:02.744 --> 00:35:13.286
So, working backwards from those two movies, we know that Doctor Doom has this intent in the 616 universe to create all these multiverses and bring them back into one timeline.

00:35:13.286 --> 00:35:22.097
I feel like that is very in line with Tony Stark's plan to build an armor around the world and protect the world from all of these multiple sources.

00:35:22.097 --> 00:35:32.177
Because if you remember the end of the Brave and the Bold movie, there was the leader there who said you know, you're protecting everybody from all the threats in this world, but what about threats from all of the worlds?

00:35:32.177 --> 00:35:36.184
So because of that, I feel like tony stark is thinking the exact same thing.

00:35:36.184 --> 00:35:45.438
He wants to protect everybody from all of the threats, and the only way he conceived to do that is by collapsing all the timelines into one, making it more manageable for him to do.

00:35:45.438 --> 00:35:57.541
Now he's doing that through the persona of doom, you might say, but I think he's going to be playing, you know, victor von doom in the timeline of the fantastic four when first steps comes out.

00:35:57.541 --> 00:36:00.034
So this is what I think happens in fantastic four first steps.

00:36:00.034 --> 00:36:02.280
It's going to lead to all of that shit happening there.

00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:03.822
All right, here we go.

00:36:03.903 --> 00:36:13.882
Okay, so in fantastic four first steps, we know that that is an alternate timeline that is basically based around the 1960s, which features the fantastic four in like exploratory states.

00:36:13.882 --> 00:36:20.085
They're celebrities in their world and we also know that every single timeline has anchor beings.

00:36:20.085 --> 00:36:32.766
Right, they have these kind of anchor beings and I think that because we know that galactus is in this movie and we know that the silver surfer is in this movie and doom is either in this movie or as a post-credit scene.

00:36:32.766 --> 00:36:57.445
So I think that this movie is going to be exploring the fact that these heroes have emerged, the Fantastic Four has emerged and then the Silver Surfer arrives because an extremely powerful anchor being or extremely powerful being with celestial godlike powers has made itself known in this timeline and, as a result of that, it's drawing Galactus to the Fantastic Four's world.

00:36:57.445 --> 00:37:05.684
And when that Galactus is coming and when Silver Surfer is coming, I believe that they'll encounter the Fantastic Four and they're going to think that that anchor being is Sue Storm.

00:37:05.684 --> 00:37:17.925
The reason I think that is because Sue Storm is prominently being portrayed as the leader of the Fantastic Four, or at least a very leadership-like presence, and her uniting factor, the heart of the team.

00:37:17.925 --> 00:37:29.076
I think it's just going to be something that they kind of draw on here Now.

00:37:29.076 --> 00:37:42.137
That being said, I think that Galactus is going to come to this world, that the Fantastic Four are in, and I think that world is going to be destroyed in some manner, and I feel like Dr Doom or Tony Stark, robert Downey Jr is going to see that in some manner, and I feel like Dr Doom or Tony Stark, robert Downey Jr is going to see that this is happening and also work with the Fantastic Four to try and stop that from occurring.

00:37:42.998 --> 00:37:52.143
However, through all this, we've also been confirmed that Sue Storm is apparently or Vanessa Kirby, who plays Sue Storm, is going to be pregnant.

00:37:52.143 --> 00:37:57.222
Now in the movie or in the comic books, she has Franklin and she has Valeria.

00:37:57.222 --> 00:38:01.346
Franklin Richards is an extremely powerful mutant.

00:38:01.346 --> 00:38:10.063
He has reality-warping energy powers, he can create different sorts of universes and his power rivals that of the Phoenix Force.

00:38:10.063 --> 00:38:14.920
So I think that the legacy, the anchor beam's not Sue Storm.

00:38:16.034 --> 00:38:28.382
I think the anchor beam is going to be the baby that's inside her, which is franklin richards, and as a result of that, it's going to cause complications with her pregnancy, which happens in the comic books as well, and her giving birth to this child is going to impact her life.

00:38:28.382 --> 00:38:35.007
Therefore, the fantastic four make a pact with victor von doom to use his knowledge and power to bring this being into the world.

00:38:35.007 --> 00:38:43.697
In exchange for, in the comic books, he becomes the god parent of valeria, which means that he can use that child how he sees.

00:38:43.697 --> 00:38:54.740
Now, if he's using that child how he sees, he's going to use that child to warp him into a reality of his choosing, which is how he gets to everybody's reality and becomes the god emperor, doom and starts battle, world and world war.

00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:55.141
Doom starts.

00:38:55.141 --> 00:38:56.164
That's my theory.

00:38:56.164 --> 00:38:56.804
There's a lot there.

00:38:56.804 --> 00:39:02.987
So I think it all hinges on the anchor beam being Franklin or Valeria, whichever child is going to be within Sue Storm.

00:39:02.987 --> 00:39:12.041
But I think that Galactus and the Silver Surfer are going to be coming to Earth to try and destroy that anchor beam or to destroy Franklin Richards because of how much power that he has.

00:39:12.041 --> 00:39:15.809
However, they think that they're going to destroy Sue Storm.

00:39:15.809 --> 00:39:43.882
At this time they won't suspect that it's going to be the child, but I think, by merging their powers with that of you know, they'll go to an old ally when they're in trouble, when Sue Storm's in a whole lot of peril, they'll go to this old ally that they knew, who has ultimate intelligence and technology, which is Victor Von Doom, who's going to help deliver this baby, and in exchange for that, he's going to be able to use the powers that this child has, like a Rumpelstiltskin kind of vibe, to travel him into a new reality or to create a new reality.

00:39:44.364 --> 00:39:45.346
Are they going to time jump then?

00:39:45.507 --> 00:39:45.666
Am I?

00:39:45.666 --> 00:39:50.326
No, I'm not thinking a time jump, I'm thinking almost like Galactus will destroy that universe.

00:39:50.326 --> 00:39:56.992
I think that Galactus will come and destroy that actual planet and the Fantastic Four will flee, but they'll flee using the baby's powers.

00:39:57.172 --> 00:40:06.798
But for Victor to use the kid's powers, how like, especially if it's only a baby, how is he going to control that power to do what he wants it to do?

00:40:06.798 --> 00:40:07.722
Will they time skip it?

00:40:07.722 --> 00:40:10.938
So he's older and then goes hey, Franklin, I'm your godfather.

00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:11.902
I don't think so.

00:40:11.902 --> 00:40:20.422
It'll all depend on, I think, that he'll be able to tap into the genetics of this child in some manner in order to activate their abilities.

00:40:20.422 --> 00:40:21.445
That's what I think.

00:40:21.445 --> 00:40:31.606
How they do that I'm not too sure, but I think they're going to use the Fantastic Four's children, Reed and Sue's children, especially Franklin Richards, because he plays a really big part in Secret Wars.

00:40:31.606 --> 00:40:37.684
He has this reality-warping ability where he maintains new universes and pocket dimensions.

00:40:37.684 --> 00:40:46.501
He's also called in the Marvel comics one of the architects of Marvel universes because he has the potential and the power to actually create universes.

00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:51.255
Well, technically, in some of the comics it's Kang.

00:40:51.476 --> 00:41:00.704
Well, yeah Well, Kang is actually a descendant, like a long, long, long descendant from Reed Richards, which then means also he is a descendant of Franklin as well.

00:41:01.356 --> 00:41:06.101
Yeah, well, I know, in one of the animated shows it's actually Franklin.

00:41:06.635 --> 00:41:07.800
Oh, it actually is Franklin.

00:41:08.838 --> 00:41:18.088
Yeah, franklin goes bad, and I'm not sure if he goes bad bad, but he wants to change something in his future and comes back in the past and do it.

00:41:18.454 --> 00:41:48.367
But, yeah, as can be conqueror and yeah, I think that in the end Robert Downey Jr's doom will gain an affinity for this child, because in the comic books eventually Valeria becomes his familiar and his godchild, but also his heir, becomes his heir to Latveria, because it's literally the only progeny that he has, and he's always found a connection because he actually delivered Valeria Richards into the world.

00:41:48.367 --> 00:41:59.402
He was like their wet nurse pretty much, because Sue was having so much trouble with her pregnancy through the radiation that was in her blood that she was passing that on to her children and the only one that could help them was Victor.

00:41:59.402 --> 00:42:11.286
So I think that Victor is going to be called by the Fantastic Four as a previous enemy that is going to become an ally who helps Sue through her pregnancy and deliver this baby in exchange for something in the future that he is going to use that child for.

00:42:11.936 --> 00:42:12.860
I still just can't.

00:42:12.860 --> 00:42:14.023
I just can't.

00:42:14.023 --> 00:42:19.628
I mean I can see it because they've done.

00:42:19.628 --> 00:42:27.847
They sort of did it in WandaVision, where they had the Fox version of Pedro, oh yes yes, yes, quixot, pietro Pietro.

00:42:27.847 --> 00:42:34.280
Pietro, pietro, come in as Quixot, come in from the Fox universe.

00:42:35.362 --> 00:42:40.021
And then it turns out that it was actually just some dude, Funnily enough, and correct me if I'm wrong.

00:42:40.021 --> 00:42:47.322
I think WandaVision is being directed by the same person as the Fantastic Four First Steps, but that's not out of his wheelhouse, Mike Shackman.

00:42:48.275 --> 00:42:55.822
Yeah, but we find out in Agatha all along that the guy who was playing the brother actually knew all along that he wasn't the actual brother.

00:42:55.822 --> 00:43:10.224
He was just some random dude that was in the wrong place at the wrong time and Wonder made him think that, controlled his mind like she did everyone else in the town and made him think that he was her brother when in fact he wasn't.

00:43:10.224 --> 00:43:19.786
He was just a dude in the Marvel and Sonic universe that just looked like the Fox version of Quicksilver Yep.

00:43:20.074 --> 00:43:26.465
So yeah, matt Shackman is the director of WandaVision and also he's going to be the director of Fantastic Four, first Step.

00:43:26.465 --> 00:43:28.623
So it's not out of his wheelhouse to do a little callback.

00:43:28.856 --> 00:43:47.681
I can understand and realistically, no one's going to really see Victor Von Doom as Robert Downey Jr probably until Doomsday, I would assume, because if he's only coming into it in Fantastic Four, there's going to be no one there who knows who Robert Downey Jr or what Iron man is.

00:43:47.681 --> 00:44:09.371
They're only going to know Robert Downey Jr, victor Von Doom, it's only when he merges the worlds or whatever he's going to do to get everyone together when everybody that he knows from his previous avengers life as tony stark is going to start saying wait a minute, damn, you look like tony stark you look so familiar and I can't put my finger on it.

00:44:10.012 --> 00:44:13.460
Yeah, no, all right, let's go to our next uh, devil's avocado question.

00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:21.976
So let's go back to our fantastic Four 2005 movie, because we've absolutely digressed from that and talked about some Fantastic Four theories for the coming 2025 movie.

00:44:21.976 --> 00:44:27.836
So let's talk about Doctor Doom's portrayal in the 2005 movie played by Julian McMahon, australian actor.

00:44:27.836 --> 00:44:30.713
Critics did not enjoy.

00:44:30.713 --> 00:44:33.532
I don't think it was that they didn't enjoy his performance.

00:44:33.532 --> 00:44:36.496
I think they did not enjoy the way that doom was portrayed.

00:44:36.496 --> 00:44:38.079
What are your thoughts, brash?

00:44:38.099 --> 00:44:40.884
I in a way, agree with them.

00:44:40.884 --> 00:45:06.043
The reason, the reason why victor on doom hates the phaser force, or particularly reed richards so much, is that in the accident, the game of their powers, victor is meant to get scarred the shit up like he's meant to look atrocious and that's why he wears full body armor and that mask to cover up his scarred face and he hates, seething rage Ree Richards and blames him for that boy, for being like that.

00:45:06.043 --> 00:45:11.722
In this he hates Ree Richards because he's stealing the girl that he doesn't technically really have.

00:45:12.523 --> 00:45:19.177
Yeah, he's portraying in this one his personality and motivations are, to use the youth's term, whack.

00:45:21.032 --> 00:45:21.976
He's losing his business.

00:45:21.976 --> 00:45:26.175
He's pissed off about that and blaming Reed Richards, or blaming all of them for that, because of the space station incident.

00:45:26.175 --> 00:45:34.277
And then he's also even more pissed off at Reed Richards because he's stealing my girl, even though Sue's like I, ain't his girl.

00:45:34.838 --> 00:45:41.001
Yeah, I think that is one of the biggest differences really, because, you know, comic book doom is a really complex character.

00:45:41.001 --> 00:45:46.442
He is driven by a belief that he alone can save the world and he's also destined to rule it as well.

00:45:46.442 --> 00:45:59.518
And when you're looking at this version of him, he plays this jealous businessman who's really out for revenge which doom does do but in this one he seems really petty and the reasons behind it seem very petty as well, and he comes off as whiny.

00:45:59.518 --> 00:46:01.382
And he comes off, as you know.

00:46:01.382 --> 00:46:11.199
Also, as one of our threaders commented as well, his motivations and his actual plan is never fully explained to us in this movie, like through the writing.

00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:25.773
It's doom is kind of like an afterthought at the end of this movie because they needed to fight a villain, whereas most of the complication of this movie was the fantastic four characters trying to work out their powers and trying to actually find a way to reverse the powers that they then had.

00:46:25.773 --> 00:46:46.298
Now Doom kind of takes a backseat to this, where he's going through the same, similar transformations, but he's using the powers that he's getting to go and kill all the board members that were going to shut him down, which is extremely similar to the Spider-Man movie that Green Goblin did, which this one definitely was trying to run off the coattails of, and I just think it didn't work for the character of Doctor Doom.

00:46:46.298 --> 00:46:53.512
It works for a character like Green Goblin, who is unhinged, but for Doctor Doom we know that his comic book counterpart is extremely calculating.

00:46:53.512 --> 00:46:54.554
He's very intelligent.

00:46:54.554 --> 00:47:00.798
One of his actual abilities and powers, you might say, is that he has a genius level intellect and a very strategic mind.

00:47:00.798 --> 00:47:04.762
I didn't see that coming off in this 2005 movie at all.

00:47:05.322 --> 00:47:10.266
Yeah, Julian makes a good Doctor Doom, but the writing didn't make a good Doctor Doom.

00:47:11.771 --> 00:47:23.565
I completely agree with that because the way that he played some of those scenes, you can see that he could go from calculating to extremely conniving and unhinged in the click of a finger.

00:47:23.565 --> 00:47:36.800
One of the scenes that come to mind is obviously when he's talking to Reed in the top of his Baxter building and the electricity is flicking in and out and he's talking about how he wants a fix to this now Like that kind of shift that the actor of Julian McMahon can do, very Doom-like.

00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:40.621
Also, I think that he actually looks the part as well.

00:47:40.621 --> 00:47:44.862
I think Julian McMahon, in the way that he looks his appearance, very Doctor Doom-like.

00:47:44.862 --> 00:47:46.978
I imagine him as Doctor Doom, even in the comic books.

00:47:46.978 --> 00:47:51.501
You can see that he has similar facial structures to Victor Von Doom as well.

00:47:52.949 --> 00:47:57.822
Wonderful casting, but poor execution on the character side.

00:47:57.842 --> 00:48:08.472
Yeah, I think with this one as well, one thing that's definitely missing that kind of it's really fundamental for a dr doom character, and dr doom is so hard to bring to the big screen because he is.

00:48:08.472 --> 00:48:15.007
So he's got so much going on like he is a scientist with with a master of technology, and he's also that skilled sorcerer.

00:48:15.007 --> 00:48:16.875
But not only is he a sorcerer and a scientist buddy, he is a scientist with a master of technology and he's also that skilled sorcerer.

00:48:16.875 --> 00:48:22.246
But not only is he a sorcerer and a scientist buddy, he is a king, he's the monarch of Latveria.

00:48:22.246 --> 00:48:28.262
So he's got these three amazingly large titles that require so much depth and time to develop to an audience.

00:48:28.262 --> 00:48:33.836
And it's only through the comic books and him being one of the oldest villains that we have that we're able to see this come through.

00:48:33.836 --> 00:48:49.681
But one thing that I kind of would like to see, which I don't think I don't even think they'll explore it in the new one and we definitely didn't see it in the o5 version was was his sorcerous origins, because that really motivates so much of who he is and what he does as a character.

00:48:49.681 --> 00:48:57.684
And his motivations because his father was a uh, romani healer, and this is why I like Victor Von Doom as well, because I have gypsy heritage and so does he.

00:48:57.684 --> 00:48:59.916
We have a connection here.

00:48:59.916 --> 00:49:02.338
I'm secretly a supervillain, oh wow.

00:49:04.530 --> 00:49:18.735
So yeah, his father was a healer who died trying to flee Latveria after the then ruler of Latveria wanted him to save his wife, but Warner Doom's father couldn't do it, so the monarch got extremely mad and then killed his father.

00:49:18.735 --> 00:49:31.998
However, in the process of doing this, doom's mother, cynthia von Doom she actually arranged this pact with Mephisto to bring her husband back in exchange for her soul, and obviously she got messed over in that arrangement.

00:49:31.998 --> 00:49:40.335
But that started Doom's sort of obsession with the occult, because he grew up really resentful and obsessed with avenging his parents.

00:49:40.335 --> 00:49:48.476
And also you can see throughout his comic book run that he also bargains so much with all different kinds of demons from the other planes and especially hell.

00:49:48.476 --> 00:49:58.480
His love of technology got him out of Eastern Europe and got him to America, where he ended up meeting Reed Richards, and that's a similarity that they have in the movie as well.

00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:08.577
However, the only incident that tells us that he's from Latveria is when one of the board members says to him in this movie you know, maybe it's time to go back to the old country.

00:50:08.577 --> 00:50:09.313
What was it again?

00:50:09.373 --> 00:50:09.976
Latveria?

00:50:11.030 --> 00:50:14.619
And then he's also got that mask that says the mask that says, oh, a gift from Latveria.

00:50:14.619 --> 00:50:16.143
It's like, wow, what a shit gift.

00:50:17.971 --> 00:50:20.657
He's from humanitarian services to Latveria.

00:50:20.938 --> 00:50:22.101
He has a creepy mask, yeah.

00:50:22.809 --> 00:50:35.650
In the comic books, though that's accurate from the 2005 movie, because Latveria is like a beacon in a province that is almost perfectly run in a very bleak and desolate Eastern European landscape.

00:50:35.650 --> 00:50:44.355
So he looks after his people in Latveria so well and they all love him so much they wanted to put the mask in there to say, oh look, it's Dr Doom's mask.

00:50:45.130 --> 00:50:46.777
And then they also wanted to have that time to love him.

00:50:46.777 --> 00:50:49.677
So like, oh, the people could have given him this.

00:50:49.717 --> 00:51:05.510
Yeah, and you know it also like cheapens that origin and I know you really can't get into that much of it, but I do feel like Doctor Doom took a backseat in this movie and and like especially Doctor Doom, like it should have been a slow burn for Doctor Doom.

00:51:06.432 --> 00:51:25.554
So in the first movie, instead of him being the big bad, they could have brought in any other Fantastic Four bad guy to in any other Fantastic Four bad guy for them to fight at the end, and could have had Victor Von Doom still conniving in the background working up his other sort of mischievous shit that he was doing.

00:51:25.554 --> 00:51:28.378
And then they could have prolonged him.

00:51:28.378 --> 00:51:41.275
Instead of just being like Victor Von Doom, he's slowly turning bad in these five second cutaways that you see of him, and then all of a sudden, bam, he's a bad guy and then, oh, they froze him in because they used basic science.

00:51:41.818 --> 00:51:44.614
Yeah, chemistry 101.

00:51:44.994 --> 00:52:10.721
Eating metal and then rapidly cooling it, and this is the same mistake they did, I feel, in the 2015 remake of Dr Doom is they made him his skin metal, instead of him getting his mystically made armor Yep and combining the mystical made armor with technology.

00:52:10.809 --> 00:52:22.632
Which is definitely a massive element as well, because when Dr Doom made his mask in the comic books, he made it uh with tibetan monks and it sort of plays to his hubris, because he put that mask on.

00:52:22.632 --> 00:52:29.498
He was already horribly scarred, but he put the mask on before the metal had a chance to cool and scarred himself even more.

00:52:29.498 --> 00:52:35.239
So he had this, this hubris in him that he wanted this power so badly that he couldn't wait for it, and then he put the mask on.

00:52:35.239 --> 00:52:58.422
That all plays into the character of Doctor Doom, and the way that I think they could have done it in this Fantastic Four movie from 2005 is, like you said, they put in this villain that isn't Doctor Doom, any other villain from Fantastic Four, and in the background, doctor Doom is actually going through trying to find ways to fix the thing that happened to him, and one of the ways he does that is he goes back to the old country and he uses the old magic of his Romani people, of his Gypsy people, to try and fix it.

00:52:58.682 --> 00:53:12.577
Yeah, Instead of him squabbling with his board members he could have been in the mafia and he could have been Developing that sorcery side of him Exactly, and he can be doing that off to the side with the whole goal of what his goal is.

00:53:12.577 --> 00:53:20.244
In the comics they could have had the puppet master as the bad guy, because they've got Alicia Yep or even Mole man or something like that.

00:53:20.304 --> 00:53:20.985
Yeah, but like.

00:53:21.045 --> 00:53:21.706
Alicia's already in it.

00:53:22.090 --> 00:53:23.172
Yeah, alicia Masters yeah.

00:53:23.253 --> 00:53:24.396
Yeah, her father's the puppet master.

00:53:24.597 --> 00:53:33.721
Yeah, who, for those that don't know, is the love interest of Ben Grimm the thing, yeah, in the daughter of the puppet master as well, another prominent Fantastic Four villain.

00:53:34.101 --> 00:53:49.737
Yeah, they could have had him and that could have because of the fact Ben was struggling so much with his new look and they even got the deleted scene of when Alicia takes him to the gallery, the little art show, and she's made sculptures of him.

00:53:50.030 --> 00:54:08.581
It could have helped strengthen the bond between Alicia and Ben, because it could have been that Alicia's father may not have always been the best of persons peoples but then the fact that Alicia is getting all smoochy with some big-ass rock dude might have gone like nah, sent him over the edge.

00:54:08.581 --> 00:54:16.521
Yeah, it'd been like no, I'm sorry, sir, I'm going to make you leave by force if necessary, and use his upturning skills.

00:54:16.521 --> 00:54:19.619
And that's how they could have had a bad guy.

00:54:19.619 --> 00:54:28.076
And it could have been that Alicia didn't really know about the father's dark side of it and ultimately they didn't have to like.

00:54:28.076 --> 00:54:30.010
Of course it was like such a lie, I don't have to kill him, or.

00:54:30.010 --> 00:54:35.722
But they could stop him and Alicia could be thankful that they stopped his father from doing anything to Heinz.

00:54:35.722 --> 00:54:42.197
And that could strengthen the bond between Alicia and Ben, because in the second movie they're really shooed up.

00:54:42.750 --> 00:54:52.797
Yeah, exactly, we can definitely agree, at least for our Devil's Avocado segment, that Doctor Doom hasn't really ever been represented properly.

00:54:53.259 --> 00:55:01.081
And you know what I think Marvel casting Robert Downey Jr has only complicated, introducing him again.

00:55:01.081 --> 00:55:21.481
I think that with the connection to Iron man and Tony Stark, we're not going to get a true Doctor Doom in the sense that you know he's going to be that monarch, he's going to be that technologically scientific mind and that sorcerer as well, because dr doom can can go toe-to-toe with, like steven strange he's.00:55:21.481 --> 00:55:32.570


He's that kind of level of sorcerer and he's that kind of level of intellect that he can compete with reed richards and tony stark, like he is a fundamental and powerful villain of the m of the marvel marvel universe.00:55:32.570 --> 00:55:45.199


And I just don't think that with them linking it to Robert Downey Jr and therefore linking it to the character of Tony Stark, that they can really do this character of Doctor Doom justice, which is sad, because I really want to see him done well.00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:52.974


I hope that he's done well and I hope I'm going to be eating my words when this movie comes out, but I'm not holding high expectations, brash.00:55:53.594 --> 00:55:58.380


Yeah, to be honest, I couldn't see Julian McMahon doing it again.00:55:58.380 --> 00:56:06.356


He'd be too old for the role For me personally, especially if they're trying to, because I understand, yes, they've got their iconic Avengers.00:56:06.356 --> 00:56:07.320


We age man.00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:08.693


We're here Confront characters.00:56:08.693 --> 00:56:09.096


Don't age.00:56:09.096 --> 00:56:16.039


Yes, they can go on like Thor can become Odin Thor, where he's old and white and gray and he's extremely powerful.00:56:16.039 --> 00:56:17.503


Now, that's fine.00:56:17.503 --> 00:56:23.559


They can keep Chris Hemsworth forever if they want to, as long as he doesn't deteriorate too much.00:56:23.860 --> 00:56:33.695


I reckon and this might be controversial or you might not agree especially for the new one, kirby Kebbell, who played Victor Von Doom in the 2015 movie.00:56:33.695 --> 00:56:35.876


I think, no, I think him.00:56:35.876 --> 00:56:38.211


He managed to do that movie was great.00:56:38.211 --> 00:56:39.773


How he looked horrible.00:56:39.773 --> 00:56:43.380


How that movie was also very horrible.00:56:43.380 --> 00:56:58.083


Oh, but poe kevill's victor von doom, I thought, was really good hates the government, thinks that they're all a bunch of idiots that are just destroying the world and destroying the planet and that he alone is the planet's savior.00:56:58.083 --> 00:56:59.355


Has that God complex?00:56:59.355 --> 00:57:02.657


Also, hay, three Riches because, sue Storm, I love that.00:57:02.657 --> 00:57:03.480


They keep that going.00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:04.541


They keep that going.00:57:04.730 --> 00:57:09.820


I saw a lot of similarities actually when I rewatched it between the 2015 and 2005.00:57:09.820 --> 00:57:17.463


There were actually a lot of similarities, but Toby Kibble as Tick Von Doom, just before he goes bad in the other world.00:57:17.463 --> 00:57:23.079


He met the high heart of the movie, until they lose him in the void place.00:57:23.079 --> 00:57:28.059


He was, I think, a very, very good Victor Von.00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:28.400


Doom.00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:33.757


Character-wise I don't want him as Victor Von Doom, but I think he is a good actor.00:57:33.757 --> 00:57:34.987


I wanted to see Mads Mikkelsen.00:57:34.987 --> 00:57:35.552


I think he would have been a really as Victor Von Doom, but I think he is a good actor.00:57:35.552 --> 00:57:35.780


I wanted to see Mads Mikkelsen.00:57:35.780 --> 00:57:43.032


I think he would have been a really good Victor Von Doom because he has the presence to play this villainous character.00:57:43.273 --> 00:57:55.639


I think he has range, that he's able to play a sorcerer and also a sovereign and also a scientist, because I think he's played those three roles in three different movies before, so combining them wouldn't be hard.00:57:55.639 --> 00:58:01.496


And he's a similar sort of age to Pedro Pascal, so it's believable that they would have attended university and college together.00:58:01.496 --> 00:58:03.277


So that's who I would have liked.00:58:03.277 --> 00:58:11.896


But I think that the main point that we can kind of take away from this is through the casting of Robert Downey Jr we're not going to get an authentic Doom.00:58:11.896 --> 00:58:18.483


But I also would like to summarize and say that julian mcmahon did a good job with what he had.00:58:18.483 --> 00:58:25.195


He looked like doom and I think he also, personality wise, was he.00:58:25.195 --> 00:58:27.018


He did the best with what he had like.00:58:27.018 --> 00:58:35.623


He showed moments of being able to to pull it off, and I just wish he was given something a little bit better to to do that with.00:58:35.909 --> 00:58:38.117


I don't hate the casting in 2015.00:58:38.376 --> 00:58:39.760


That casting was was.00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:50.077


It was different for the time as well, and obviously there is a lot of media interviews that haven't really aged well in terms of them asking questions to Michael B Jordan and Kate Mara about how their siblings.00:58:50.077 --> 00:58:56.717


Like that hasn't aged very well because, you know, it can be easily explained through one line of dialogue in the movie.00:58:56.717 --> 00:58:59.695


I think I actually think that Michael B Jordan played a good Johnny Storm oh yeah, 100% Like he's good for the role.00:58:59.695 --> 00:59:11.737


I think that the casting wise, this movie was well cast, even Jamie Bell, who I believe got some pretty big flack for paying Ben Grimm because he previously played Billy Elliot.00:59:11.737 --> 00:59:17.161


I think that's a really good casting and I really really like Miles Teller as Reed Richards' Mr Fantastic.00:59:18.934 --> 00:59:19.978


Yeah, and they play a young guy.00:59:19.978 --> 00:59:28.759


See, that's the thing I like about this kind of casting is they were all young and even the actors at the time were young.00:59:28.759 --> 00:59:33.019


That, for me, young casting is longevity for those characters.00:59:33.019 --> 00:59:33.661


Mm-hmm.00:59:33.661 --> 00:59:37.023


Old casting is not longevity for those characters.00:59:37.023 --> 00:59:37.164


Mm-hmm.00:59:37.164 --> 00:59:38.269


Old casting is not longevity for those characters.00:59:38.451 --> 00:59:42.398


It's worrying about the now, basically, which is my concern about Pedro Pascal.00:59:42.398 --> 00:59:44.157


We might get into that a little bit later as well.00:59:44.157 --> 00:59:46.358


Yeah, I think for our Devil's Avocado segment.00:59:46.358 --> 00:59:49.219


We don't like Doom as they have been represented so far.00:59:49.519 --> 00:59:59.153


Yeah, doom, they need to pay homage more to his more comic accurate, and we'll see if they do that in the next one.00:59:59.153 --> 01:00:07.643


All right, and that has been part one, where we have discussed the movie of Fantastic Four that was made in 2005.01:00:07.643 --> 01:00:12.161


During this episode, you also found out that we have a giveaway going, guys.01:00:12.161 --> 01:00:14.318


That is a family pass to the movies.01:00:14.318 --> 01:00:16.918


Anyone can enter international as well.01:00:16.918 --> 01:00:32.197


If you wanted to enter that, all you have to do is go to our website, wwwbandcamportalspodcastcom and join our mailing list, and the second thing you have to do is hope that Brash and I can earn 15 points this month on Marvel Month in order to send you there.01:00:32.197 --> 01:00:35.992


Not five so far, five so far, just five so far.01:00:35.992 --> 01:00:39.559


Five so far, five so far, which means 10 to go, which is very doable because we're both very knowledgeable.01:00:39.659 --> 01:00:41.996


But we want to thank you guys so much for tuning in and listening.01:00:41.996 --> 01:00:43.282


As always, it's been a pleasure.01:00:43.282 --> 01:00:45.735


Uh, I really love talking about the fantastic four, guys.01:00:45.735 --> 01:00:48.630


We're going to do so again in part two, so make sure you tune into that as well.01:00:48.630 --> 01:00:50.733


We're going to be diving deep into the characters.01:00:50.733 --> 01:01:10.833


We're going to be looking at reed richards, we're going to be looking at johnny storm, sue storm and also ben grim and the actors that played them in the 2005 movie we're going to be talking about, if they were portrayed well, what the actor's performance was like, what the chemistry was like, and also our hopes for fantastic four first steps with these new characters that comes out in 2025.01:01:10.833 --> 01:01:15.061


So once again, guys, we'd love it if you would share this podcast with a friend.01:01:15.061 --> 01:01:21.333


It's the best way to get our material on the ears of lots of new people, and we love to grow our community.01:01:21.333 --> 01:01:22.358


This is Aaron signing out.01:01:22.358 --> 01:01:23.976


Rash signing out.