Transcript
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Is Avatar the Last Airbender the best cartoon ever made?
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What real-life lessons can you learn from this children's animation?
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All that and more with my guest, luke Newton, on this episode of the Fandom Portals Podcast.
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Welcome to the Fandom Portals podcast, where curiosity finds community in a celebration of all things geek.
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In every episode, we dive deep and answer your favorite fandom questions in the time it takes you to slide through the mail chutes of a marshoo.
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I'm your host, aaron Davies, and today we are answering the question.
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Is Avatar the Last Airbender the best cartoon ever made?
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Today we're going to be focusing on book one, which is the water book, with book two and book three coming later on in the year, and this episode is going to focus on three main aspects that make this show the best.
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It's the character arc and developments, the layered plot and story structure, and the world building and lore.
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And this episode is part of our ongoing series in October called Animation Celebration, and we feature a community question with a focus on animation because we are celebrating the International Day of Animation on the 28th of October.
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Listeners, I want you to get ready for a very exciting deep dive with a very special guest, and I'm thrilled to welcome luke newton, an animation aficionado whose passion for avatar is truly unmatched.
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Luke isn't just a lifelong friend, he's a walking encyclopedia of all things avatar the last airbender, from the rich lore of passing, say, to the northern water tribe, character arcs that define the series, to the world building and mythology.
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Luke's deep knowledge and enthusiasm for avatar will captivate you.
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Here he is.
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It's luke newton.
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How you going today, buddy?
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Yeah, pretty good.
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Thanks.
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How are you?
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Yeah, not too bad.
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It's great to be here with you today.
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So we're talking about avatar the last airbender today, but your story with animation begun way before you.
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You watched avatar the last airbender, so what sorts of animations did you watch?
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What's your story with animation?
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Where did it begin for you?
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What's your origin story?
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uh.
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So it sort of all began, I'd say, with dragon ball.
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That's pretty much where I got into how it all started to me.
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And then, obviously, when I had a toasted tv as well, growing up before school eating cereal.
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So it was, yeah, pretty much.
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Yeah, dragon ball, dragon ball z and yugioh, like the main ones.
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Like like it was my introduction into, like, anime I would say um, and then all throughout high school and stuff, I always watched it because I had a lot of time on school holidays and stuff to watch anime.
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So, yeah, that's pretty much how I got into it with um avatar the last airbender.
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You, you sort of we.
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We have a history of watching things together as well, and you came up for a visit one time.
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We started watching star wars season seven, the clone wars, which is an animated series as well, and really exciting piece of television you showed me and then we were actually going to do our topic on that, but eventually you came to the conclusion that you wanted to talk about avatar the last airbender.
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So it obviously holds a pretty special place in your heart if you think it's going to top that.
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So what's your introduction with avatar the last airbender?
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What do you think personally makes it so great To start?
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is the thing that makes it so great is the world.
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Like the world they've built, the characters, the lore, like all of those things combine and they take a lot of inspiration from real life cultures and people and they just sort of mesh it all together and it just works so well.
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Yeah, no, I 100% agree, and there's been a lot of talk about Avatar in my peripheries for a very long time, but this is the first time I've kind of dove in and watched the whole thing front to back, start to finish.
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So I've also seen like episodes here and there, but never watched it from.
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You know, episode one, book one, all the way through, full disclosure to the listeners.
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I am up to the start of the second book now.
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So today, luke and I are going to be talking spoilers, obviously spoilers.
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It's a 2006 series, but we're deep diving onto book one, which is the Book of Water, and we are going to be talking about those themes, those lessons, the world building and also some of the character arcs of book one, but not going any further because we want to do the second book and the third book in other episodes of the Fandom Portals podcast which will be released later this year.
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So to start off with Luke, you mentioned that some of the aspects of the world building of Avatar really draw you to the cartoon itself.
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So one thing for me is the four nations and their cultures.
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So can you give us a little bit of a brief rundown the four cultures, the four nations and some of the things that define those four cultures as we are introduced to these for the first time in book one.
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With Avatar you've got the four nations, you've got the water, earth, fire and air and obviously we're introduced to book, one being water and we're in the South Pole.
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So we get first introduced to waterbenders and not actually waterbenders, because we don't actually see a waterbender proper until later on in the series.
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But Katara is doing her first sort of movements of becoming a waterbender.
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You can see that when she gets in arguments with Sokka and whatnot.
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But yeah, so you have your water and then you've got your earth and then your fire, air.
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Obviously we see airbending through Aang and we see earthbending and firebending through further characters in the series, but also Zuko as well in the first episode, sorry, second episode.
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So obviously they are separated like first off, as like white colors.
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Obviously they got blue for water, green for earth, red for fire and like yellowy orange for air.
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I guess what really separates them is the way they are as a people and culture.
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You know your firebenders are much more like sort of like imperial, sort of like China, japan-esque.
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I mean earthbenders are.
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You know, all their structures are built from earth by them.
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Waterbenders obviously surround themselves with water North Pole, South Pole, swamps and then you obviously get your air nomads, which are up in the mountains and usually highly elevated, above everyone else.
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So that's sort of what separates them and their cultures are very different as well.
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So, obviously, your waterbenders, they're more of a focused on community, focused on the tribe, the people, um, and then obviously with your.
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With your, we don't know too much about the air nomads as of book one, because we are only seeing it through what we see with ang and I think the, as you were saying about the fire nation, they're probably well, from what I can see, to be the most most technologically advanced tribe or culture, almost taking that industrial side with their warships and obviously using iron a lot more than any other culture.
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It's kind of really pushed them forward, you could say, in their territorial expanse, which is another big theme of the avatar universe.
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That is introduced to you pretty early, I think by episode two, actually probably even episode one.
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You're introduced to the fact that there is a historical conflict or a hundred year war that's been going on between the fire nation and everybody else.
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So even in the introduction, you know, the katara voiceover says the fire nation attacked and that that hundredyear war is kind of going on.
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So across the series there has been lots of impact on that war.
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There is that voiceover that has been at war for 100 years and a lot of people viewed the Fire Nation as the enemy.
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No one likes firebenders and you don't really see too many firebenders that are not affiliated with the Fire Nation, so it's really sort of impacted.
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You see, as season one goes on, you can see that they've taken over a lot of few towns of the Earth Kingdom and you can see that they're slowly trying to invade and take Earth Kingdom territory.
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They haven't had any success with the major cities of the Earth Kingdom as of yet.
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So throughout the book you can see that they sort of envelop and take over everything that they sort of touch and they also capture Earth Kingdom citizens and use them to work for them as well.
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Yeah, and I saw that really apparent in sort of episode three, the southern air temple, when they're they're like learning about the devastation of the fire nation and ang goes in and sees for the first time, you know, the impact that they've had.
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And also in episode one or two when he's in the water south pole with katara and he's seeing, you know, the the fire nation ship that's sort of booby trapped and obviously zuko's on his way down to try and find the Avatar.
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So let's actually talk a little bit about that lore of the Avatar.
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So can you tell us a little bit about who the Avatar is, what is surrounding that Avatar mythos and what's his job in the series?
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Yeah, of course.
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Well, the Avatar is a person that can wield all four elements.
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They are a bridge between the physical world and the spirit world and they're meant to keep balance between the four nations.
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So that's the whole purpose of the Avatar and the thing that the Avatar is quite respected in the world because they are aware of the wisdom and the power that the Avatar holds and they're also aware of the significance of having an Avatar.
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So it's like reincarnation, so they know that they've had several lives and they can also tap into those past lives as well.
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Yeah, I think that the avatar is a pretty nice essential grounding point for all four nations and it keeps each nation in check for those type of things and you can see when he's not there.
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When he vanishes, the Fire Nation invades, starts a hundred-year war and because the Avatar wasn't around, like it's just been unchecked for a century.
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Essentially.
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Yeah, and then the impact of that culturally and also throughout the nation has gone through as well, like seeing lots of people displaced and lots of people's villages just sort of taken over, with the Fire Nation moving straight through the Earth Nation obviously taking more and more.
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There are quite a few instances through book one where they talk to us about the lore of the spirit world and you mentioned before that the Avatar keeps the balance or is the connection or the bridge between the spirit world and the regular world.
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And in book one we see Avatar sort of play with that balance a little bit.
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In book one we do have a couple of different journeys to the spirit world, one being, obviously, when the Haybot attacks that village due to them burning down the forest and whatnot.
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So you see that interaction there and that spirit's taking villagers to the spirit world.
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And then we also see it later on when ang speaks to roku as well, and also when he goes to the spirit oasis.
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In the end, like in the final episodes of of season one.
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I like that, and the spirit world is like, as, as you should be told that he and can't use airending or any bending in the spirit world.
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So, and when he's, when he is in the spirit world, like his body can't be, can't be moved, otherwise he will, you know, come back to the physical plane, um, and it's implied that it is actually quite hard, or it can be quite hard, to get to the spirit world, um, depending on, like, what kind of avatar you are.
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Um, as we do see that, um, some avatars have struggled with being able to tap into that spiritual sort of side, whereas Aang, being an airbender, mark, he's already mastered that sort of side to being the avatar, so he's quite good at going in and out of the spirit world.
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And through the episodes as well, you do see that he is quite naturally gifted in terms of his own bending skill.
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He picks up waterbending quite quickly in the middle sort of episodes of the book as well.
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And then also you know that spirit journey through episodes seven and eight in the winter solstice episodes is really apparent as well, and that's where the season sort of kicks off in my eyes in terms of the really sort of overarching narrative of the Avatar's role in this world.
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So obviously he's there to keep the peace and he knows that the Fire Nation is.
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On the march there was some talk about a comet that was occurring through book one and there was that astrological event that sort of did something with the Fire Nation.
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Yeah, yeah, so it's called Sotan's.
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Comet and essentially what happens is it's the comet that was used to first start the war, so it was used to wipe out the Air Nomads.
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And essentially when Aang visits Roku at the Solstice Ace Temple, he pretty much explains that the comet is going to come back again.
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Like, usually it takes years for the Avatar to master all four endings, but he's going to have to do it by Summer's End if he wants to stop Fire Nation before Sozin's Comet arrives.
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It pretty much enhances Firebender's abilities.
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It pretty much gives him like a times 100 buff, you could say, on all their bending.
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So they're pretty much the very like just your common foot soldier has the bending of like a firebending master.
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So like, imagine a firebending master with that type of power as well.
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It's like they're very hard to go up against.
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Yeah.
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So that would give lots of people throughout the realms a big sense of anxiety, because they're already hard to beat as it is with their advanced technology.
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Given the fact that they're empowered by the comet, it's a ticking time bomb, you might say.
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Sort of emboldens that connection to nature that a lot of the different tribes have as well, because at the end of this series, in book one, there was obviously the connection to the moon and the water tribe.
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So there is that sort of theme going on as well, that there is that sort of spirituality and the balance between the natural world and how we live in it as well as people and as vendors.
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Yes, we'll move on now talking about the themes and we might actually jump into having a chat about some of the nuances of this cartoon, because one of the most important and amazing features of this is its layered sort of plot structure and storytelling, because we are getting the tale of Avatar and his two friends going off and trying to learn the four elements and stop this hundred year war.
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Two friends going off and trying to learn the four elements and stop this hundred year war.
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But underneath all that we're also getting various different lessons about responsibility and duty, about accepting loss, about the balance of power and different sorts of ways that we can feel compassion.
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There's talks about gender equality as well and various different stereotype breakings and friendships and trust and all that kind of things.
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One example that I sort of took as being one of my sort of favorite episodes was an episode that talked about the importance of trust, and it was the episode 10, titled Jet, and it was when Aang and Katara and Sokka met that group of individuals that were sort of resistant to the Fire Nation, and then they'd go in and they'd sort of take various different things from the Fire Nation people just to survive themselves.
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And Katara was very enamored by the character of Jet and it was only realized later on that Sokka's resistance to them was because, you know, the character of Jet actually showed quite a bit of prejudice on every level towards the Fire Nation.
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We said before that not many people associated with the Fire Nation aren't with their agenda, but in this case they did meet one and there was a lot of prejudice sort of put against that person.
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And that's a really sort of adult concept to put in a really uh, you know, 9 to 14 year old sort of level cartoon.
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So it does that a few times throughout the um the series on that.
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I just wanted to add that, yeah, like you said, they met those freedom fighters and like, yeah, they're really infatuated with them and the work they do.
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They believe that they're doing like doing what's just for the cause and then, like you said, there is a lot of prejudice towards anyone with anything to do with the Fire Nation.
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Like just like the old man that they found like his Fire Nation, and Jet is very like.
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Like just like the old man that they found like his fire nation, and jet is very like they.
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They just they're very like he said, like heavily prejudiced against them and I think that's to their own detriment too, because you can't make any distinguish any.
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Just you can't distinguish the difference between like just hurting people for the sake of hurting people and like actual firebenders and the fire like fire nation, if that makes sense, that he just associates all under one big umbrella and it's good to see that.
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You know that.
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It's like when he goes to flood that town and he's successful, and then you find out that soccer actually went to the town and said, hey look, this is going to happen.
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Like it's not just about trying to destroy the fire nation or trying like trying to hurt them.
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It's about just not trying to like hurt innocent people who aren't shouldn't be involved in it.
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There are plenty of examples in the season, but I think I sort of get my most value from the character of iroh in that sense.
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So he, he teaches, he's got a lot of great, like you know.
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One line is a lot of great, like little passages of speech that are really like insightful and actually you can use in everyday life, like as a person in the real world.
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It's like, uh, you know, if I actually think of that and and try and live by that, I'll try and use that, then it actually is good advice just for, like, kids and adults of any like, of any age, you know.
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Yeah, no, I agree.
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I think Iroh is definitely one of the wisest qualities for him, iroh being obviously the uncle of Zuko.
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He's extremely loyal to his nephew and through the series I also got this vibe that he was respected general and then obviously gave that up for the love of his family.
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That's like a really you know kind of quality for him to have and obviously forsaking that duty once again for familial loyalty for a kid like Zuko and you know, when we first meet Zuko he's not really.
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He doesn't appear to be worth what Iroh is feeding into him until later on in the series.
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So he's definitely one of those characters that you can really sort of get behind and he's nuanced and interesting to watch develop because, yeah, he seems to be very kind but he's also referred to and respected by people in the fire nation yes, well, he's um, he's known as the dragon of the west.
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Essentially he was a general in the fire nation.
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We get a few, a little bit more information surrounding ira further in the series.
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So I try I've tried to not spoil um, anything, um for you or anyone who hasn't seen it just yet.
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But yeah, we do get sort of like everyone in the Fire Nation seems like for the war.
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And then you get this character, iroh, who's royalty of the Fire Nation, and he seems to just go against everything that we've seen in the Fire Nation, you know, like he's kind, he's patient, he's wise and he's there for Zuko and he doesn't really seem inherently bad at all or like he wants to cause any destruction or wants to invade anyway, he seems to just want to be there for Zuko.
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So, yeah, we do find out that, yeah, iroh has had a bit of a past, but I don't want to get into it just yet.
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It is explored a bit of a past, but I don't want to get into it just yet.
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It is explored a bit more further on yep, yeah, and they do mention as well that he he did try to assail basing, say, a few times, but obviously he failed, or that's the story that's going around from general zhou.
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My favorite moment from zuko is is in the king of amashu, episode 5, when he actually suggests to zuko you know, take some time, have some tea, don't focus on your mission so much.
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And it really highlights that sort of philosophy and balance of patience where Zuko's this really obsessive sort of kid in his nature and his quest to try and find the avatar and Iroh's that really sort of calming presence.
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We talked about episode 12, the storm, and that's kind of when Iroh really stands up for Zuko, uh, in a moment amongst his men.
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So I think that was a really sort of uh analyzing episode, episode 12, where we really got to see the backstory of Iroh and Zuko.
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The storm is is probably my my favorite episode of book one.
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Um, probably, I'd say.
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Obviously the finale's great, but this one here really shows, gives a lot more depth to a really one-dimensional character.
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Up to this point, you know, up until this point, it's just about finding the Avatar, capturing the Avatar.
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He doesn't seem to really care about anybody else, doesn't care about his uncle, doesn't care about the safety of his crew, which is mentioned in that episode.
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So the storm really gives us a deeper dive into Zuko, but also Aang at the same time.
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I really love how that episode is portrayed.
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It's reading the backstories of our two main characters like the protagonist and antagonist.
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We're getting those two backstories told at the same time and the duality of it all is actually amazing.
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I love how it's structured, this episode.
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You find out that Zuko, he wants to lead the nation.
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He's very young and enthusiastic, he wants to go into this war meeting and the guy's not letting him pass.
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But then Iroh obviously said please, you can go in and just don't say anything, because these old people can be a bit sensitive.
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And then obviously he's listening to the plan of the commander in the war room and he's saying that we'll send a battalion in to the Earth Kingdom to assault the front lines.
00:20:36.940 --> 00:20:39.496
And they're like, well, you're not going to do it.
00:20:39.496 --> 00:20:42.363
They're brainy recruits, you're not going to be able to, you're not going to make any difference.
00:20:42.363 --> 00:20:55.092
And then their commander goes yeah, of course, that's the point there, fresh meat, we're going to put them as bait.
00:20:55.092 --> 00:20:55.357
And then we'll attack from the rear.
00:20:55.357 --> 00:20:59.324
And then zuka obviously stands up, um, for all those soldiers and says, hey, how can you just throw their lives away like that, like they love and respect our nation, like how can we do that to them?
00:20:59.324 --> 00:21:04.329
And then you find out, obviously he has an agni kai with, with the, who he thinks is going to be the general, but then it's actually.
00:21:04.329 --> 00:21:05.172
You know his father.
00:21:05.172 --> 00:21:18.155
And then you know um, oz, voiced tremendously by Mark Hamill, says you know, suffering you will learn respect and suffering will be your teacher.
00:21:18.155 --> 00:21:21.019
And then he like obviously does the burn mark that we see.
00:21:21.670 --> 00:21:31.910
And then, in that same token, we have Aang, who you know found out to be the Avatar, which is also really cool because he picks the four Avatar relics from a thousand different toys, and it's all toys from his past lives.
00:21:31.910 --> 00:21:33.557
And that's how they found out that he's the avatar.
00:21:33.557 --> 00:21:42.820
But he gets told that he's the avatar prior to him being 16, which is the custom age that you'd find out that you are the avatar because the Air Nomads are fearing that there's going to be war upon them.
00:21:42.820 --> 00:21:47.153
And then, obviously, you know, aang starts getting treated differently by his friends.
00:21:47.153 --> 00:21:50.119
He can't play games because he's the Avatar now, so it's not a very advantage.
00:21:50.221 --> 00:22:18.696
And then you have, you know he's training and learning with his monk, mentor, gyatso, and then you have the other Enomads trying to pull him away from Gyatso and say he has to train, he has to train and can't have fun anymore, and like then he abandons his people and then he obviously falls into the ocean when the storm and then he freezes and um, so like you have those two you start getting, you start finding out that ang is just confused and like he just doesn't, doesn't really want to be the avatar at this point.
00:22:18.696 --> 00:22:21.027
And then you find out that zuko does.
00:22:21.027 --> 00:22:31.557
He does actually have a caring personality and a caring heart, because the reason why he is banished and the reason why he has the scar is because he cared about, you know, that battalion of soldiers.
00:22:31.557 --> 00:22:33.942
So, but then for his crew to find out about that.
00:22:33.942 --> 00:22:36.653
It's like a different level of sort of respect.
00:22:36.673 --> 00:22:43.441
And then you sort of see at the end of the episode, when they're in that storm, you know, the avatar comes and and he's his lieutenant goes what do you want to do, sir?
00:22:43.441 --> 00:22:44.411
Like, do you want to follow the avatar?
00:22:44.411 --> 00:22:48.278
And he goes, no, let's get the ship to safety, prioritizing the safety of the crew.
00:22:48.278 --> 00:22:50.723
And that's another good lesson that teaches as well.
00:22:50.723 --> 00:22:56.473
That teaches, like you know, just because you, you see something in front of you that you, that you really want or you can get.
00:22:56.473 --> 00:23:00.971
Sometimes it's better to help others around you before you just go after what you want.
00:23:01.212 --> 00:23:44.240
Oh, I agree, I think that that was really well said, and the um episode 12 is definitely like a turning point as well, for both characters and for viewers too, because, as you said, you know, you see Zuko as being a completely one-dimensional character who's really sort of aggressive in his pursuit of the avatar, and then we see Aang as this sort of childish, bogus little boy with the weight of responsibility on his shoulders, and then we find out that both of these characters, who seem so different, actually have something completely in common in the fact that they really just care for their people and really just want to live their lives and be fun, but the burden of responsibility is pushed upon them Zuko wanting his responsibility and then being burned literally for it, and then Aang slowly warming up to the fact that this is his role in the world.
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:48.804
I think that that episode is really sort of pivotal in both of their representations.
00:23:49.285 --> 00:23:52.012
Yeah, the tar goes to and, like you know, you give people hope.
00:23:52.012 --> 00:23:56.732
Like you know people, people see the avatar in here but you'll return and it gives people hope.
00:23:56.732 --> 00:24:07.565
But it's crazy because he also gives zuko hope because, like, but for a completely different reason like he needs to capture him and like the avatar gives zuko hope, but not in the traditional sense that everyone's talking about.
00:24:07.565 --> 00:24:09.532
So I think that's also very interesting as well.
00:24:09.814 --> 00:24:18.317
Yeah, that element of hope, where the hope for Zuko sits in his possible redemption and the return of his honor, and you know, that's kind of saddening as well.
00:24:18.317 --> 00:24:39.261
You know, looking at that and just seeing Zuko as this character that's really chasing the love of his father, like he's really just trying to be approved by the man that he obviously reveres and he's just falling short every single time, and that's what really made the the touching moments between himself and Iroh they really just hit that much more for me.
00:24:39.261 --> 00:24:45.398
You know, seeing how Iroh said that he he considers Zuko as one of his own and Zuko saying you know, I do, I know that as well one of the most amazing parts of that episode.
00:24:45.398 --> 00:24:58.736
And also heading back towards Iroh, you know we see him as this sort of calming and solid presence, always there to relax and remind Zuko about the different sorts of peaceful things in life that he should definitely consider.
00:24:58.736 --> 00:25:05.222
But there would be an element of responsibility that he feels because he said to Zuko go into that room but don't say anything.
00:25:05.222 --> 00:25:11.041
So perhaps that plays a part in why Iroh is following Zuko around in this moment as well.
00:25:11.670 --> 00:25:15.721
I do like in the finale, though, you know talking about how characters change.
00:25:15.721 --> 00:25:40.325
If we look at how Iroh is represented through the whole series and then at the very end you know, very Fire Nation loyal in terms of him being in general and then obviously being attached to Zuko, to Zuko he then goes against the Fire Nation to protect the Moon Spirit in the last two episodes of book one, when we're talking about the North Pole attack, and he actually cuts sick, you can see him be very aggressive.
00:25:40.325 --> 00:25:43.576
That power is there and you can see actually why.
00:25:43.576 --> 00:25:57.136
And that was the first moment where I clicked and I said, okay, he's a general, because he's extremely powerful, whereas before that there was just the whispers of what he had done in the past, which made me really curious about the character too especially because you you also hear from other characters that you know.
00:25:57.217 --> 00:26:05.193
Xiao goes yes, I've heard of you how you feel the spirits and how you've even gone to the spirit world yourself, and he seems to have a really close affinity for the spirits, with the spirits.
00:26:05.193 --> 00:26:11.003
He seems to really sort of hold that to a very high sort of standard in his life.
00:26:11.003 --> 00:26:16.695
He doesn't mess with the spirits and he's very like in touch with that sort of side of the world.
00:26:16.695 --> 00:26:17.759
Did you want to talk about Zhao?
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:19.354
Yeah, yeah, zhao.
00:26:19.354 --> 00:26:25.381
He's like, seriously, he's just like the embodiment of, like the fire nation, like why people hate the fire nation.
00:26:25.381 --> 00:26:29.578
He's reckless, he uses his fire without control.
00:26:29.578 --> 00:26:32.403
He is very ambitious.
00:26:32.403 --> 00:26:33.529
He's like overzealous.
00:26:33.529 --> 00:26:35.233
He just is too ambitious for his own good.
00:26:35.233 --> 00:26:48.061
You know, he finds out, obviously, about the moon um in the ocean, spirits twing and la, and then he's like, okay, well, I'm gonna go to the north pole and I'm gonna, you know, kill them, the moon spirit um, and obviously like, obviously that's just nuts.
00:26:48.061 --> 00:26:48.830
You know what I mean.
00:26:48.830 --> 00:26:52.221
Like it's not like the whole world needs the moon, not just the Water Tribe.
00:26:52.221 --> 00:27:04.974
But you can see the way when he becomes commander, he gets those archers to capture Aang, and when he goes down the river he burns down all his boats because he doesn't have any control.
00:27:04.974 --> 00:27:16.441
And we find out that he used to be Zhong Zhong's student, which is a firebender that Aang meets the first firebender we meet that has rebelled against the Fire Nation as well.
00:27:17.111 --> 00:27:19.558
And just on Zhong Zhong, I really like his character as well.
00:27:19.558 --> 00:27:21.478
I think he's a really good character.
00:27:21.478 --> 00:27:24.805
My first couple of viewings of the show I was like, eh, he's all right.
00:27:24.805 --> 00:27:28.421
But then lately I've come around to him.
00:27:28.421 --> 00:27:30.281
He's such an interesting character.
00:27:30.281 --> 00:27:33.625
Yeah, lately I've come around to him.
00:27:33.625 --> 00:27:35.046
He's such an interesting character and I really like that.
00:27:35.046 --> 00:27:38.468
He thinks that fire is like destruction caused harm, it's death.
00:27:38.468 --> 00:27:39.307
It spreads everywhere.
00:27:39.327 --> 00:27:52.614
Yeah, I think that the episode, episode 16, the Deserter, was really good for me in terms of the differences between Zhao and Zhongzhong, because that difference really highlights how future Zhao really is.